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Post by Harry on Mar 28, 2008 16:48:13 GMT
What exactly is wrong with the police and does anyone believe that if policing is devolved incidents of people getting beaten to death, people dealing drugs, muggings etc etc is all going to stop. That is the arguement i see being used here. Its a false arguement without any real meat to backup these claims that things will change.
I do agree with your anger at the way things are on our streets now but the blame lies in many areas and the main reason has nothing to do with where our police are controlled from. Its a problem with our society, where police, courts, judges are more tolerant and where paperwork is deemed more important than patrolling the streets.
I also firmly believe that Political Correctness has gone mad and has manifested itself as a protector of the evil and gives them a wall to hide behind. I don't think the problem is confined to Belfast or NI and its every bit as bad if not alot worse in Dublin and ROI and certainly much worse on the mainland UK.
I'm in my mid 20s and i always here older folk talking about young ones having no respect....was it any better in days gone by and where did it start to go wrong??
To blame incidents solely on the police is naive. Sure we should question the responses from them and have every right to demand greater protection but by devolving powers isn't a fix to the problem. We need a zero tolerance society. We need 'real time' spent behing bars and not all this fluffy bullshit of tv's, videos, game consoles in cells. When a person is released from jail they should be leaving in in a state of mind that would never ever want to have to spend another second in jail and right now we don't have that.
Its a bit off subject but i remember going to the maze and taking vodka in a water balloon and then the lads bringing out the coke and i'd leave the visit have cut. Michael stone humping his girl in the booth next to us, absoloutely no control. I used to be naive enough to think to myself it'd be good craic in there. I know circumstance were unique in NI but it was supposed to be the most secure prison in Europe!!!!
If i had good reason to believe that devolving powers would bring about major change fast, i'd jump for it. I want what you want. A safer place to live and a safer society for my family and kids to grow up in.
Devolving powers for the right reasons i'm for, doing it to meet deadlines or to appease either side i'm against.
So one of you lot convince me what would be different if powers were devolved now???
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Post by Harry on Mar 28, 2008 16:50:44 GMT
I've voted NO for now
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Post by Jim on Mar 28, 2008 17:52:31 GMT
Not saying it will stop it, it wont, but itll bring it down. When you phone the police about a bunch of hoods burning a car outside your door they'll show up an hour and a half later and they really couldn't give a fuck. That's not on.
The Police will always be very lax with hoods because its about as much as they can do. Westminster wont be legislating anytime soon to make things tougher, and we can't do it. So thats why devolved policing powers must happen.
You will never get a zero tolerance policy as long as the power of policing and justice is held by Westminster. They have more important things to legislate for, hence the whole reason for devolution in the first place. To not have devolved policing makes devolution not really devolution but just a farse and a pipe dream.
I don't see it as trying to appease anyone or to make deadlines, thats not important to me. Knowing my mam and my family are safe with a police that tries and real consequences for dickheads, when I fuck off back to England, is important to me. Isnt going to happen, Gordon Brown isnt going to be doing anything about it, so we have too.
IF Unionists keep holding this back, then I want to hear no person or politician complain when people start going to paramilitaries again to get the job done.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Mar 28, 2008 18:01:44 GMT
No one believes that once policing and justice powers are devolved all our troubles will disappear. And I have never made that claim.
The police like society here is adjusting to a new situation. And the solution is not going to be found by scapegoating the police. The police are a public owned service and it is important that local people have an input into how they are policed.
This will be one small step towards finding a solution or curtailing criminality in our society. While I accept that people in England would want the same thing, they do not find themselves in the position that we do. We can have an input into policing and justice that might actually effect how our society develops. The same social problems exist is southern Ireland, and in England, Scotland and Wales. But we have the opportunity to have some control over tackling some of the social issues.
Policing and Justice powers are not the total answer but it is an important tool in governing how society controls itself. Devolving powers will not bring about major change fast, tackling such social issues as drug use and anti-social activity is a slow process. But having control of all the tools that can mould that change is essential in bringing that change about.
It is not about deadlines or appeasing one political agenda. It is about making change in society for the right reasons not because we can.
There is no reason to delay, drug dealers and anti-social elements are not on ceasefire. The police need help and local people who understand the issues they face are best able to help. And if these people are in control of how the police are organized and financed then resources can be made available at the areas needed.
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 18:21:40 GMT
I lived for years in an estate which is one of the 12 most disadvantaged electoral wards in Northern Ireland. Thankfully I was lucky to get out of it as the place was at times a ngihtmare. I now live in a better area, still a working class area but a much better one. Then if you include a stint I had in Doury rd estate in Ballymena which is riddled with crime and drugs I would say these 2 areas are not far off some of those in West Belfast.
I know loyalist paramilitaries are still doing the rounds although no-where near as before, but if you fall out with cetain people you will get a visit.
Jim we see republcians being behind the times.
this country has areas just like England that have been getting worse for years, devolution of policing won't make that big a difference. We do have the policing board.
Jim I could easily say the ira and their supporters nearly destroyed this country and put many many people out of work. As I said this is all way to soon and I have given my reasons.
But many people do live here and are against it as well, for the time being anyway.
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 18:25:56 GMT
Not at all, but your opening line of your post diflected from the whole topic. If you weren't having a swipe at Earl or Unionists then fair enough but why say what you did on your opening line of your post??
Yes I agree.
Nothing wrong with wanting that.
Not sure about the Unionist of sorts whatever that means?
As I said above fair enough if it wasn't a swipe but it certainly sounded like one. I take your word for it.
I agree completely with what you have said here. Fair play to you.
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Post by Jim on Mar 28, 2008 18:45:30 GMT
Well if you know how bad these estates can be why dont you want to be able to do something about it? Ive made it clear that Westminster isnt going to do anything about it.
You still have loyalist paras doing the rounds and sometimes I wish the 'Ra would do them again too, so the only way we can get out of the situation of not relying on paramilitaries for anything is to devolve the powers to do so. People will NOT go to the UDA or the IRA if they know the police are behind them to help them with their problems and that the judges arent just going to give scumbags 2 years in a remand center because they cant do much more than that.
You've brought up England a few times now and so have I. Why do are you of the opinion that because its happening in England that its a bit more acceptable? Lets be honest here, England has other problems. They have muggers and they have hoods and they have drug dealers but they have to deal with race, with asian gangs, black gangs, white gangs, and the pressure groups that will support those gangs simply because of their race. We don't have that.
What exactly are you waiting on? Why are you stalling? The longer it goes on the more hoods there are.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Mar 28, 2008 19:05:35 GMT
Just to clarify Wasp - you do not fit neatly into one pigeon hole, and I am reluctant to label you as simply Unionist. There was no hidden insult or slur, just a relectance on my part to drop you into one group only. Hence I used the term 'Unionist of sorts'
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 20:55:04 GMT
Jim how do you know?
It is more of a case of some in these groups still trying to bully and control their community. Devolving powers will not get us out of this situation.
I agree.
Not at all, I used England as an example because parliment will have plenty of info and experience due to the many troublesome areas in England.
We don't but we do have racist attacks, Protestant and Catholic gangs.
I have already answered that.
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 20:56:12 GMT
Just to clarify Wasp - you do not fit neatly into one pigeon hole, and I am reluctant to label you as simply Unionist. There was no hidden insult or slur, just a relectance on my part to drop you into one group only. Hence I used the term 'Unionist of sorts' I didn't take it as a slur or insult, I was just curious as to what you meant. That's all.
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Post by Jim on Mar 28, 2008 21:04:30 GMT
How do I know what? I know how bad the housing estates in Belfast is because I've lived in them all my life. I know that Westminster isnt going to do anything about it because they are pushing for Stormont to take over Justice and Policing powers. So they'll not legislate for it until we take it ourselves in which an act will be made to say so. We are not a priority for them, the council estates in London, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham are their priorities.
That may be the case with some loyalists but a lot of them DO take on hoods and joy riders. Devolving powers will mean people won't go to them so quickly, it wont give them an excuse that the police cant do anything, because we can make them do something!!
We do have racist attacks I don't deny that but we are not a multi-cultural society with entire pockets of communinities in certain parts of the city. We don't have a huge Pakistani / Indian community sitting in North Belfast and a huge Polish / European community in South Belfast and a huge Black community in the West or East. Manchester, for example, does, so police become paralyzed with being called racist if they do something about particular gangs. We just don't have that problem mate so thats why I don't try and compare it to England, and thats why Westminster cant and wont deal with our problem. Only we know how to deal with it, no one else, not even Dublin would know.
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 21:23:50 GMT
Jim when I said how do you know, I was answering your post about westminster not doing anything.
I agree with what Dodds said, the DUP's Nigel Dodds said many issues still needed to be dealt with.
"Policing and justice are particularly sensitive," he said.
"When it comes to policing there is a special set of rules. We don't believe that terrorists, or criminals, should have anything to do with policing - whether it's as members of the police force or running the police force."
Then their is the ira army council, I have already made my reasons clear on this thread.
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 21:50:48 GMT
I almost agree with you here, fines IMO do at times work, but community work programmes do usually work and I believe things are going more and more towards community work programmes.
Sadly I know this only too well but it is not always as simple as that.
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 21:55:03 GMT
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Post by Wasp on Mar 28, 2008 21:56:34 GMT
I think the law now changes in April where 50% remission is gone unless they do community work and jail no longer kills an unpaid fine, they will still have to pay it when they get out.
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