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Post by sandyrowglenman on May 2, 2008 14:23:39 GMT
When I read discussions on this subject, I always end up with my head spinning. I guess I'm just not bright enough to figure it out. See, I was always under the impression that where you were born established your "national identity". This being one of the reasons we have pregnant women risking all to illegally enter the US in the hope their child would be born there. Therefore being a US citizen, an American.
If this is so, then what defines "British"?
My understanding is that the word "Britain" was given to the geographical area by the Romans. Not the "ENGLISH", Not the "SCOTTISH" etc. All these names established by the Romans. So, it's just a geographical identity is it not?
I have a dictionary in front of me ('course it's an American one. What do they know) One definition of "British" is "pertaining to the ancient Britons, the original CELTIC people of Briton". Another definition... "The language of the ancient Britons; Brythonic". Keep in mind, this refers to ALL of the "British Isles". This is Long before religion as we know it arrived. So you loyalists, don't try to bring Rome (the church into this). This would tell me that we are all "related" in some form.
Using the same "logic". As the official name of the island is, and has been for a hell of a long time, Ireland. Then anyone born there is Irish. yet because of "Culture" mind set, we have those who will not allow themselves to be called "Irish", and those who will not allow themselves to be called "British". Go figure!!!!
Perhaps if you "nationalists" would readily admit to the fact that, according to the established "criteria", you are indeed "British", Then the "loyalists" will be more willing to accept the fact of their "Irishness" and we can all move on.
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Post by Bilk on May 2, 2008 18:52:37 GMT
When I read discussions on this subject, I always end up with my head spinning. I guess I'm just not bright enough to figure it out. See, I was always under the impression that where you were born established your "national identity". This being one of the reasons we have pregnant women risking all to illegally enter the US in the hope their child would be born there. Therefore being a US citizen, an American.
If this is so, then what defines "British"?
My understanding is that the word "Britain" was given to the geographical area by the Romans. Not the "ENGLISH", Not the "SCOTTISH" etc. All these names established by the Romans. So, it's just a geographical identity is it not?
I have a dictionary in front of me ('course it's an American one. What do they know) One definition of "British" is "pertaining to the ancient Britons, the original CELTIC people of Briton". Another definition... "The language of the ancient Britons; Brythonic". Keep in mind, this refers to ALL of the "British Isles". This is Long before religion as we know it arrived. So you loyalists, don't try to bring Rome (the church into this). This would tell me that we are all "related" in some form.
Using the same "logic". As the official name of the island is, and has been for a hell of a long time, Ireland. Then anyone born there is Irish. yet because of "Culture" mind set, we have those who will not allow themselves to be called "Irish", and those who will not allow themselves to be called "British". Go figure!!!!
Perhaps if you "nationalists" would readily admit to the fact that, according to the established "criteria", you are indeed "British", Then the "loyalists" will be more willing to accept the fact of their "Irishness" and we can all move on. Sandy, I agree with almost all of this. My problem is with the point about being "Irish". (By the way for years the nationalists didn't allow me to be Irish, I was a brit so couldn't be) I am as Irish as the day is long, I live on the island of Ireland, that makes me Irish. I also live on the continent of Europe that makes me a European. I am British by nationality. That is because there is a governmet that governs the area called "The United Kinkdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". I was born in that geographical area, that is why I'm British, not because I am a sectarian bigot, but simply because I was born here. The land of my birth is governed by the British Government, that makes me British. Nothing else, not my culture, not because my mother spoke Ulster Scots fluently, nor brcause I go to watch the bands on the 12th. That is my culture and has nothing whatever to do with my nationality. People in the RoI do that too, (watch bands at the 12th, because it is part of their culture too) but they were born in the RoI so they are not British, that part of this island is not governed by the British government, so they are not British. Sounds like I am spelling this out to a first year class at school don't it? That's because there are certain people who you need to do that for. They seem to think you can choose your nationality, like you choose a new shirt. There are Americans who think they are Irish, that's how stupid it gets. Their great, great, great grandfather was Irish so that makes them Irish. Only the Irish think like this as far as I can see, it's the only nationality I know you can choose to be. As far as I am concerned there is only one thing that determines your nationality, that is the country of your birth. You can pretend it's not becausse it offends you to think it is. But the plain fact is that that is the truth of the matter. |
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Post by Wasp on May 2, 2008 22:52:08 GMT
For me bilk the island of Ireland ceased to exist at partition, one island with 2 countries on it. I also live on the continent of Europe that makes me a European. I agree with you here. I have posted similar bilk before so wait for your onslaught of posts telling you how wrong you are blah blah. Funny they heap praise on theose who come to live in Ireland and are proud of there new identity and nationality, bit hypocritical don';t you think?  I couldn't agree more Bilk, the only problem with this is the fact many of those terrorists and criminals who attacked our community, the security forces, places of employment etc etc were infact British terrorists who were in the ira, rather than Irish terrorists. (those born in the UK that is). |
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Post by sandyrowglenman on May 2, 2008 23:42:17 GMT
[quote author=wasp board=loyal thread=593 post=11692 time=1209768728
For me bilk the island of Ireland ceased to exist at partition, one island with 2 countries on it.[/quote]
Sorry my friend, while you are correct about two countries, the ISLAND did not cease to exist. And BOTH countries claim the name "Ireland" in their designation.
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Post by Bilk on May 3, 2008 15:15:24 GMT
[quote author=wasp board=loyal thread=593 post=11692 time=1209768728 For me bilk the island of Ireland ceased to exist at partition, one island with 2 countries on it. Sorry WASP, I have to agree with Sandy, this is the island of Ireland and has been since any history book I have ever read was written. The truth of the matter is it was an island called Ireland. Until the brits came here and united it there never was a country called Ireland. Since partion the country of Ireland ended it's short life (short in the historical term of how long the island has existed), and became two countries. One called itself "The Republic of Ireland" thus accepting that there were two countries (or why bother, why not just call itself Ireland?). The other called itsef "Northern Ireland". They are two political and geographical areas of the same Island. The island of Ireland. To deny that is a very similar mindset of those who deny they are British, even though they were born in the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Like them you are in denial, and to you I say, sorry mate but you are Irish. |
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Post by Wasp on May 3, 2008 17:22:16 GMT
Sorry mate but I am not Irish, nor do I class myself as Irish, IMO to be Irish then you have to be born in Ireland, I was born in N.Ireland so you could call me Northern Irish but not Irish by itself. I would have no problem calling myself Irish if I was Irish but I wasn't born in Ireland I was born in N.Ireland which is part of the UK.
I suppose I look at it like would a Canadian be American if he was born in Canada etc.
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Post by Wasp on May 3, 2008 17:23:38 GMT
BTW what is the island that England, Scotland and wales make up? So why would this island be calssed as the island of Ireland when it is clearly an island with 2 seperate countries on it?
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Post by Bilk on May 3, 2008 17:52:59 GMT
The island those three countries are situated in is called Btitain. Lump all the countries together and it's called Great Britain. Or the british isles which includes all the off shore islands like Skye, The Hebrides etc etc
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Post by Bilk on May 3, 2008 18:02:17 GMT
Sorry mate but I am not Irish, nor do I class myself as Irish, IMO to be Irish then you have to be born in Ireland, I was born in N.Ireland so you could call me Northern Irish but not Irish by itself. I would have no problem calling myself Irish if I was Irish but I wasn't born in Ireland I was born in N.Ireland which is part of the UK. I suppose I look at it like would a Canadian be American if he was born in Canada etc. No not the same at all, because Canada is called Canada. Now some people in their stupidity call it North America, but not the Canadians, they call it Canada, so they are Canadians. And would and do get pissed when they hear their country called North America. The goverment of the time decided to call this part of the island Northern Ireland, that makes us Irish by name. As two different countries North and South Korea are all koreans. There is no name that separates this part of Ireland from the other. |
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Post by sandyrowglenman on May 3, 2008 18:09:29 GMT
Sorry mate but I am not Irish, nor do I class myself as Irish, IMO to be Irish then you have to be born in Ireland, I was born in N.Ireland so you could call me Northern Irish but not Irish by itself. I would have no problem calling myself Irish if I was Irish but I wasn't born in Ireland I was born in N.Ireland which is part of the UK. I suppose I look at it like would a Canadian be American if he was born in Canada etc.
Using your logic, the Scotts can't call themselves Scottish, Welsh can't call themselves Welsh, English can't call themselves English because, after all, these countries are part of the UK.
Northern IRISH, Southern IRISH, no matter how you cut slice or dice it, still adds up to IRISH!!!
