What is 'Britishness'?

[Blue Angel]

what i would find interesting is the assertion that even if we accept that militant republicanism is a part of irish culture it is something to be ashamed of. I am sorry if it offends, but even were i to accept the proposition that republicanism was intrinsically part of irish culture i would not be ashamed of it.

[Harry]

blueangel said:

what i would find interesting is the assertion that even if we accept that militant republicanism is a part of irish culture it is something to be ashamed of. I am sorry if it offends, but even were i to accept the proposition that republicanism was intrinsically part of irish culture i would not be ashamed of it.

Fair play to your honesty and your fully entitled to those views. Where i see murdering, cowardly scumbags you see Freedom fighter, oppressed people etc etc and its exactly vice versa. I have no problems with your view whatsoever. I don't think there is any definition for any culture, it can mean so many things to many different people.

[Blue Angel]

actually you do me a little disservice there, i don't see all the loyalist fighters as murdering or cowardly. Oh certainly scum like the Shankhill Butchers are and there are those on my side I'd say where no better either but I think popping all the members of the loyalist groups into a pigeonhole marked ,'murderer' or 'cowardly'would be absurbdly simplistic. Certainly there is no simplistic definition for culture, the family i was raised in would have regarded the irish revolutionary figures of the past several hundred years as intrinsic to our background but there are plenty of families who would have no time for them or for whom they would be marginal figures. Indeed my mother's family (who had far less influence on me growing up) was markedly non-political and my mother would tend to find 'something more interesting to do' as she put it when my father and i started on about irish/socialist politics.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am not trying to cherry pick from any culture. but I do not believe that HWWITW's analysis is correct. While I do think the argument has merit, but the fact that politics (the system of government, etc) is part of culture does not lead on that all political ideologies are then part of a culture. I am sorry that intelligent discussion tires HWWITW and he feels he has to repeat himself. Perhaps if HWWITW put forward a more definitive argument his point would be clearer to those who are obviously not as intelligent as he thinks he is. But we have seen that his knowledge of history has been corrected. So if HWWITW can present conclusive proof rather repeat unproven statements, that might like his historical recollections prove to be false, it would make it easier for those of us who are more questioning and less accepting of unproven statements.

Now if we take HWWITW's analysis - He says law is an aspect of culture, like politics. Then by his analysis all laws and breeches of law are part of culture. So therefore HWWITW is saying that stealing, child abuse, etc is part of culture? The same as he says that all political ideologies are part of a culture. So is communism part of American culture?

I need to give this some more thought as I do not want HWWITW repeating himself unnecessarily. But I do not agree with the analysis but want to consider the points made, and prepare my own thoughts.

I am not suggesting that HWWITW is an intentional racist. But modern racists are becoming more clever, and they now are couching racism in ways that appeal to many. Many feel that normal political parties are letting them down. I think suggesting that one culture holds to one view/trait/politics is very much a sweeping statement and creating the stereo-type image that is similar to the way clever racists couch such things.

[Jim]

I have to disagree on republicanism being part of the irish culture, because its like saying socialism/communism is part of the chinese culture and that imperialist colonisation is part of the english modern day culture. None of it is.

What would be valid is to say those events and ideals influenced cultures. Where would Britain be without its old empire? Would china still be in a century of humiliation without changing to communism? Would Ireland be part of the UK if it wasnt for a republican armed struggle? They all influence people in one way or another but they certainly arent part of the culture. If anything the ideas of irish republicanism came from foreign countries and the united irishmen where heavily influenced by the french idea of revolution, not the irish idea.

I dont see it as racist though I do see it as a lack of understanding for irish culture, because I personally know the BNP arent part of any culture (it was used as an example), the BNP wish they where part of british culture, they wish they were up with the big boys of labour and tory and defeating them both, but its not happening

[Bilk]

I have read through this whole thread and as usual, when someone asks "What is Britishness" republicans immediately want to talk about culture, because that is where they feel safe. Culture does not = nationality, which is what Britishness is, a nationality. A political leaning, rather than a cultural one. There are many many cultures in the state of the UK, and whether republicans like it or not the Irish culture is one of them. I am proud of the part of me that is Irish in culture. But I also most definately see myself as British in my nationality. There is a distinct Irish culture, but even in Ireland it is not the only culture, so to suggest that your culture defines your nationality as in Irishness/Britishnes is a nonsense. It is nonesense to say that any one culture defines any country, it doesn't and never has done throughout history.

[Harry]

bilk said:

I have read through this whole thread and as usual, when someone asks "What is Britishness" republicans immediately want to talk about culture, because that is where they feel safe. Culture does not = nationality, which is what Britishness is, a nationality. A political leaning, rather than a cultural one. There are many many cultures in the state of the UK, and whether republicans like it or not the Irish culture is one of them. I am proud of the part of me that is Irish in culture. But I also most definately see myself as British in my nationality. There is a distinct Irish culture, but even in Ireland it is not the only culture, so to suggest that your culture defines your nationality as in Irishness/Britishnes is a nonsense. It is nonesense to say that any one culture defines any country, it doesn't and never has done throughout history.

Nice post Bilk, great to have your input again.

[Bilk]

yeah, but that is your culture mate, as it happens it also happens to be your nationality. But there are people living in Ireland today, who hold an Irish passport, and are therefore Irish citezens, who are not from an Irish cultural background. How do these people define their Irishness. Whether people living in the north accept that they are British or not, that is what they are, and will be until the population changes that through a referendum. Nationality cannot be defined like a culture. People from corwall have a totally different culture from those in Newcastle, Manchester, Glasgow etc etc but they are all British. So the simple answer to the simple question "What is Britishness" is, it is the nationality of those who hold British citezenship. That's it in a nutshell, no explanation needed.

[An Fear Dubh]

I have never concluded that culture = nationality.

But people bandy terms about - saying they want to remain British, they are Irish. I want people here to think what do those terms mean to them. I am not putting one above the other, or separating bits from one and saying it does not exist in other. Of course Irish culture exists in the UK the same as British and American culture exists in Ireland.

Bilk said, "to suggest that your culture defines your nationality as in Irishness/Britishnes is a nonsense. It is nonesense to say that any one culture defines any country"

I agree with that.

Bilk said, "So the simple answer to the simple question "What is Britishness" is, it is the nationality of those who hold British citezenship."

So are you saying Bilk that someone who lives in Ireland and who holds an Irish passport (citizenship) can not be British?

[Blue Angel]

or what of me, i hold 3 different passports - British, Republic of Ireland and Spanish - what does that make me one wonders

[Jim]

Possible interpol agent?

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

anfeardubh said:

I have never concluded that culture = nationality.

But people bandy terms about - saying they want to remain British, they are Irish. I want people here to think what do those terms mean to them. I am not putting one above the other, or separating bits from one and saying it does not exist in other. Of course Irish culture exists in the UK the same as British and American culture exists in Ireland.

Bilk said, "to suggest that your culture defines your nationality as in Irishness/Britishnes is a nonsense. It is nonesense to say that any one culture defines any country"

I agree with that.

Bilk said, "So the simple answer to the simple question "What is Britishness" is, it is the nationality of those who hold British citezenship."

So are you saying Bilk that someone who lives in Ireland and who holds an Irish passport (citizenship) can not be British?

Culture is the way of life of a people. It consists of conventional patterns of thought and behaviour, including values, beliefs, rules of conduct, political organizations, economic activity etc, which are passed on from one generation to the next by learning and not biological inheritence

in short any pattern of human behaviour in human socity that is learned and not passed on geneticly is culture.

[An Fear Dubh]

HWWiTW said, "Culture is the way of life of a people. It consists of conventional patterns of thought and behavior, including values, beliefs, rules of conduct, political organizations, economic activity etc, which are passed on from one generation to the next by learning and not biological inheritance
in short any pattern of human behavior in human society that is learned and not passed on genetically is culture."

I think that is a good dictionary type definition, and I can not find much wrong with it.

Bilk in his rush to get one over Irish Nationalists living in the north of Ireland, wiped out the idea of a northern Irish culture inside of the UK state.

And the whole purpose I asked the question was to highlight to everyone (Irish Nationalist or Northern Ireland British Unionist) that we can not 'cherry pick' or unpick certain sections and exclude them from our culture.

I am still struggling with some of the points that HWWiTW made previously. In particular the claim that culture is one political ideology, or even a facet of that culture. And does his definition conflict with this view?

Are some political ideologies 'conventional patterns of thought'?

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

I have never said that "culture is one political idology", i said that political idologys are part of culture and the only person being 'exculsive about culture' and 'cherry picking' culture is yourself An Fear

[Bilk]

anfeardubh said:

I have never concluded that culture = nationality.

But people bandy terms about - saying they want to remain British, they are Irish. I want people here to think what do those terms mean to them. I am not putting one above the other, or separating bits from one and saying it does not exist in other. Of course Irish culture exists in the UK the same as British and American culture exists in Ireland.

Bilk said, "to suggest that your culture defines your nationality as in Irishness/Britishnes is a nonsense. It is nonesense to say that any one culture defines any country"

I agree with that.

Bilk said, "So the simple answer to the simple question "What is Britishness" is, it is the nationality of those who hold British citezenship."

So are you saying Bilk that someone who lives in Ireland and who holds an Irish passport (citizenship) can not be British?

In many countries there is an agreement on dual citezenship, and I believe that is now the case in Ireland/UK. But that makes those Irish who choose that road British. I actually think you are making my argument. Sorry for taking so long to answer your question mate.