What is 'Britishness'?

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

who knows, maybe i am from donegal. Not really a fan of UB40, i just like the 808 state remix of UB40's 1 in 10

[Blue Angel]

good bassline on the original - endlessly sampled over the years.

I have a few pointers to add to this. One I hate it when people pull the old 'where were you born' argument out at unionists as conisdering our history as a diaspora it's a bloody stupid point when you give it a moment's thought. I was born in the East End of London and only spent a small ammount of time growing up in Ireland and the East End and it's people are part of my influences and world but I consider myself Irish first and foremost, it's just I'm Irish in my own way like many people here who are second-generation. And I hate the old 'plastic paddies' line equally much as I hate the comments about unionists really been Irish and not knowing it as both I find snide and dismissive. I agree with the point that to some extent our identity is as much self-determiend as destined.

[An Fear Dubh]

I believe that culture and nationality are more complex than people first think. And as Blue Angel said comments like 'unionists are really Irish but do not know it yet' are snide and dismissive. But I have met few Loyalists/Unionists that are really comfortable with their culture as it exists in the north. Wilderness seems to be that rare exception.

The Ulster Unionist Party seems most at odds with themselves and seem very unsure of what makes up culture. We see from the Orange Order that factual history is not a strong point. When trying to explain what they want and what appeals to them, they say that the Queen is British. But as Wilderness has explained she is not British but the institution of the Monarchy is a British Institution. The Unionist Party say if you eat Fish and Chips you are British. So there goes those Ulster Frys.

I think your culture and nationality is as much defined as who you identify with as many other things.

[Blue Angel]

indeed but then i'm stuffed fd as i identify with the following mix of people :- countess markievicz, james connolly, ernie o'malley, liam malley - all fine traditional irish republican icons but then we have b.b. king, malcom x, chief joseph, jimi hendrx, issac asimov, issac singer and others-so that makes me irish, american, black, cherokee indian and jewish

what i find interesting when comparing unionism and nationalism (and it's a point i've remarked on before) is that the level of distrust in the govt. of any british administration is probably even higher i've noted in some quarters of the unionist people than the nationalist.

i think the points made about culture been a changeable thing and mutuable are well worth bearing in mind, especially with the upsurge of political parties in europe running around going on about migrants diluting some pure version of a particular culture, (which never of course exsisted).

[sideshow]

its an artificially created concept-same as European-what does it mean to be european?Britain is just an umbrella term invented to cover an amalgamation of different countries and cultures.it was probably thought up by the English to make the countries they colonised feel less shitty about theselves when they were taken over by them.They probably said "hey dont worry-we're going to enslave your people and plunder your country-but dont'worry -its not for US the English -its for this new place called Great Britain-of which you are now a part,so dont feel bad,feel proud"

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

personnly blue angel i have no problem with you identifying as irish, if that is how you see yourself then that is what you are in my books, but i am glad you understand that English culture plays apart in your cultral background by virtue of the fact that you grew up there. As to britain being an unbrella term. of course it who would argue with that, however you name me one national identy that is not in fact an umbrella term for various different cultral identys. Ireland or irish is also an umbrella term that covers varius cultral identys, blue angel is an example of that, there is somebody who was not even born in ireland but identfys themselve as irish, look at how different donegal is from wexford, or if we take the english identy look at how different north england is to south england, when it comes down do it most identys are umbrella terms. Some of you on this site are very fond of using umbrella terms or should i say blanket terms, look at the way some of you throw the word unionist around.
As it happens the term great britain or at least britain was created when the scottish king (i forget which one) took the english throne, thus unifying scotland and england and creating britain (wales was just counted as part of england at that point. the scottish king looked at quite a few different designs for the union flag including one were the cross of st andrew was the cross on top of the st georges flag rather then the way it is today, anyways i'm waffling) point is its the scots that created britain not the english

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

think your thinking of the act of union of 1800 hich was the creation of the united kingdom, the union of scotland and england was much early and happened when the scottisj king took the english crown amd became the king of scotland and england

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

so your saying the scottish king (james the first i think) was blackmailed into talking the English throne?

[An Fear Dubh]

Okay I am unsure of English and Scottish history unless it effected Ireland. So this Scottish King that 'Wilderness' talks of that became an English and then British King was actually a Queen. And did this Queen look at flag designs, or is that bit wrong as well? And the Scots did not create Britain, they found themselves bankrupt and under a financial burden. And England exploited this to blackmail the result they wanted.

Are we agreed that some terms are 'umbrella' terms that cover various cultural identities that exist under one political leadership. Terms like British, Irish?

But what happens when one political leadership or influence attempts to subdue aspects of culture that belong to another section or grouping that exists inside the greater political area? Is this normal conflict of ideologies or is it the expression of something else? Then there is also the attempts to blur or blot out the cultural identity of the past by imposing new social requirements onto todays (or the society of that period) society and make the usage of the other culture obsolete or illegal.

Some people like to believe that such things happen as 'natural' events. And therefore there is no onus or responsibility or blame that can be attributed to any group or thing. And they tire of such debates and searches that make people examine the facts in detail. If they tire why do they not just look away? Maybe they already understand but do not face the logical conclusion of seeking such knowledge. I do not wish to remain ignorant or without knowledge, and I wonder at the motives of those that find such searches for knowledge tiresome. Do they wish to hide something or defend something that is wrong?

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

james the IV became james the 1st of england because of the treaty Berwick which he and Elizabeth has signed in 1586 after almost 4 years of counter-plot and rebellion. the two monarchs agreed that they'd respect each others religion, be allies and help if the other was invaded and, more importantly for elizabeth point of view, neither side would help anyone who threatened the other, so elizabeth signed the treaty because it ment scotland would not help the french, which was of immense importance to England. James got £4000 a year out of the English, plus an understanding that elizabeth would block any attempts by the english parliment to oppose jame's claim to the english throne as long as he waited untill her death. And yes it was james that had the union flag designed and it was unvieled at endinburgh castle and some of the propsed ideas for the flag are still stored in edniburgh castle to this day. Why do i find arguments about culture tiresome, its simple really your asking me to define something that is impossiable to define, all that can be given are examples of culture, as to hiding something thats 'wrong' i guess it comes down to who is making the judgment and why. For example there are things that i judge as wrong in the irish culture but some in the irish culture are comfortable with such as the republican armed struggle, now i am not suggesting thats it is the be all and end all of irish culture, it is only 1 small part, but a part none the less. However just because there are somethings within the irish culture as wrong does not mean i judge the entire culture as wrong either. I just understand that culture incompesses everything good, bad and indifferent

[An Fear Dubh]

Is Republicanism part of Irish Culture? I do not think so. Republicanism is an ideology, I think you are confused and it seems you do not understand culture, as you have previously suggested.

Any culture is far wider than acceptance of one ideology. Suggesting that one culture or people of one culture accept one ideology borders on racism and warps the ability to properly define culture. Making being a member of a certain culture into a political weapon to use against those of a particular ideology, and to condemn an ethnic grouping for sections of society that hold to an ideology, is racist.

I am not sure if you can define some parts of culture as 'wrong', only as out dated, and no longer in keeping with the demands of modern society. Culture should be things that is or was used in everyday life. Sometimes aspects of culture become out dated, but I can not think of where it might be called wrong. People steal, are you saying that is part of culture? Society recognizes wrong and things are culturally unacceptable as well as against the law. Sometimes the law can be wrong or unjust, but I would like to hear/read some better examples of where a culture is wrong.

I would like to explore in greater detail some of the questions I asked in 'reply 43'. Because I think they are very important. I accept that 'Wilderness' did start to address some of them. But others need to look at how they would answer these questions as well.

In reply 43-
"But what happens when one political leadership or influence attempts to subdue aspects of culture that belong to another section or grouping that exists inside the greater political area? Is this normal conflict of ideologies or is it the expression of something else? Then there is also the attempts to blur or blot out the cultural identity of the past by imposing new social requirements onto todays (or the society of that period) society and make the usage of the other culture obsolete or illegal."

And I feel that Wilderness in his honest attempt to look at this, found his judgment clouded by his opposition to an ideology, that is favoured by many that come from 'Irish Culture'. I think such a clouding is understandable, but one we can now see when highlighted.

I was suggesting that the subjugation of a culture by force or law is wrong. Those that support the culture that is being promoted through this subjugation want to hide from everyone seeking the knowledge that their culture did not win out after natural conflicts but only through the elimination of another culture. And thus such knowledge taints their culture and their support of it.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

Dear me, somebody is on thier high horse tonight. It seems you are the one who misunderstands culture. Republicanism is a political idology that has been at the center of irish political thinking for the last hundred years or so atleast, and since 'politics' is infact yet another facet of 'culture' then it is fair to say that republicanism is part of irish culture. However i merely stated 1 part of irish culture that i had a problem with, i was quite clear though when i said it was only a small part of the irish culture not the totallty of it so please spare me your pious indignation, it was merely 1 example of a part of your culture i had a problem with, i am sure that you could list many parts of my british culture that you have a problem with, moreover i am very sure you would list them with great gusto.
There are parts of my culture i am unhappy with, there are parts that i amshamed of, but there are many more parts that i am proud to say make me british, but i am not going to justify my culture to anyone on this site or any other site, i am British, deal with it.

[An Fear Dubh]

You (Wilderness) accept that Republicanism is an ideology, but you then attempt to limit a culture to one ideology. I fail to see any proof of that assertion. I think the only thing that you have proved is that you hold a racist view.

The British National Front has been evident in British politics for many years, are you saying that means that part of British culture is racism?

I think that such thinking is absurd!! It is twisted and racist thinking! It is obvious that the reason you tire of debating culture is because you do not know what you are talking about.

No one is attempting to belittle anyones culture, we are attempting to understand better what people mean when people like you say that you do not like Irish Culture (or British Culture). Because you have demonstrated better than I could have explained, that it is not Irish Culture that you oppose but a political ideology. And no matter how much you stamp your foot up and down, a culture is a lot more encompassing than one ideology.

I note you did not provide another example of where a culture would be wrong. As opposed to parts of culture becoming outdated.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

you can not cherry pick culture, as i have already said culture emcomposses eveything in a society, good, bad and indifferent. So yes the BNP is part of my culture and incedently is a part that i am shamed of. It is you that still does not seem to grasp what culture is and i am quite frankly getting tired of repeating myself. Politics is part of culture, moreover the cultural background of a nation determines how politics is expressed. Now yet again i have to repaet myself. I at no point claimed that volient republicanism is the be and and end all of irish culture, at no point did i say it defines irsih culture, in fact i was quite clear in saying that it was only a small part of irish culture. At no point did i say that republicanism is the only idology in irish culture. nither is the BNP the be all and end all of british politics, they are a small and distastful part but a part non the less. lets make things simple shall we, law, politics, music, art, literture, religion, food, agricultre, industry, money the list goes on, all are part of culture and all play a part in shaping culture

[Harry]

I don't see how HWWITW is expressin a racist view. He openly admits parts of his culture aren't up to scratch but as he says its not fair to picka nd choose only what suits.. Glad to have a fellow Unionist onboard