What is 'Britishness'?

[An Fear Dubh]

Unionists want to remain in a political union with Britain. And Loyalists want to show that they are loyal to the English (of German decent) Monarchy despite what a British parliament might do or say that might undermine the political union with England, Scotland and Wales. In other words they want to be British.

In January Jack Straw gave a lecture in Oxford, about the need to reflect a stronger 'British story', that everyone can identify with and feel part of. Some of the examples he used were - Magna Carta and the Civil War. - Where people fought for British values like freedom and fair play.

Maybe his history teacher was not very good, but this is revisionism. The Civil War was an English civil war in which the Scots intervened, and secondly anyone who associates Oliver Cromwell with freedom and fair play must be nuts. The Magna Carta was again an exclusively English matter a deal King John made with his barons to avoid civil war.

So why do people like Jack Straw want to rewrite history. Because they hope that most will not go into the detail but be fooled by glossy surface. And government in England is only about the greater London area. The Labour party are thrashing about looking at ways to cover up the fact that Gordon Brown is Scottish. The other reason that senior Labour want to promote 'Britishness' is the elections in Scotland today. But when these senior politicians regardless of party (Labour, Conservative or Liberal) talk about Britain they mean England first and Scotland and Wales second. And exclude Norn Iron. With the alienation of the Muslim community there is a greater desire to create a universal picture of 'Britishness' that can be all inclusive. But when they look around to show what is the things that are 'British' every politician in Britain is careful to point out the sort of 'Britishness' that manifests itself here, has no place in modern society.

So what is 'Britishness'?

[mactalla]

I see you read Mr Feeney today, as well, AFD.

[Harry]

Being part of something, community spirit, standing patiently in a queue, having manners, eating fish and chips, supporting rugby, cricket, football, being in a union with different countries with different ways of life but all bound with the link and proud to be Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English and British.

Being determined, steadfast, facing adversity with courage, supporting free speech, brave enough to take action when needed, being humble, apologising even when we are the victims, taking pride in the family, helping others, showing kindness, tolerance.

Ulster frys, English breakfasts, cups of tea, complaining about the weather, goodwill, trips to the seaside, .............

Its hard to define exactly what Britishness is and i don't think you can and thats what makes it so great

[An Fear Dubh]

Yes Jim not my own idea, but those of Brian Feeney's but my shortened edit, and that was Wednesday's edition not todays.

So Harry how does that 'Britishness' differ from Irish, European or American? Most cultures would claim to most of those, but the reality is somewhat different.
The Hutton Inqiry put a few of those to bed regarding free speech and freedom in Britain. And I take it you do not travel around England much as finding manners today is a rare commodity, everybody wants to be in your face. And I do not see much union between muslims and christians, more like deep suspicion.

I am not sure that 'Britishness' exists that encompasses North England, South England and Greater London, as well as Scotland and Wales. There is a obvious difference between rural Ireland and the Dublin Pale area, as well as Northerners.

[Harry]

I travel around England almost everyday. I meet plenty of people with manners and would say its more rare to find people without them. England isn't as friendly as back home, thats a fact but they still in general have manners.

I don't think you want to find out what is Britishness but merely want to have another pop at everything British. Britain has its problems but where doesn't??

[earl]

On this matter, if someone says they are British, then there's not much point in arguing otherwise. Same goes for every other nationality. You ask anyone in the world what defines their nationality and I'd say 70% of the time, you'll get the same attributes as the next nationality will state as their own.

[Wasp]

harry said:

I travel around England almost everyday. I meet plenty of people with manners and would say its more rare to find people without them. England isn't as friendly as back home, thats a fact but they still in general have manners.

I don't think you want to find out what is Britishness but merely want to have another pop at everything British. Britain has its problems but where doesn't??

Harry I have toured England all my life right from a young child to now. Some years I go over for at least a week about three times a year and sometimes stay for up to three weeks. I often go over for the weekend to London to see the Arsenal and I love the place.

I have made many friends and also have met plenty of people with manners, I find the midlands and London areas to be my favourite places.

[Republic]

I often go over for the weekend to London to see the Arsenal

;D

[Wasp]

Republic are you not a gooner then?? lol

[Republic]

no i support the champions. we are back on top after 4 long years ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Wasp]

Bet you are supporting Arsenal tomorrow though. lol

[An Fear Dubh]

Having a constant 'pop' is not my motivation. My interest is in the people who live on the island of Ireland. I travel to England regularly myself, my visits tend to be around the greater London area. I would agree with Earl's assessment, that people define themselves and once defined most can not put that into something tangible that differs significantly from other cultures.
I listened to UUP Nelson McCausland talk about identies, on the BBC 'Hearts and Minds' programme. I thought he made some interesting observations. Saying that identies were layered, he spoke about himself - Protestant, Orangeman, Unionist, Ulsterman, Ulster-Scot.
As an Irish republican, I look at Unionism, and their 'Britishness' and try to sort out myself what this is for Unionism. I look at England to compare their values and norms to see if they are the same as ulster-unionists.
From my perspective I see vast differences within the inner city areas of London. I see the Muslim community becoming alienated, but previously immigrant communities accepted a role outside of the establishment, now they want a more leadership role. I do not see a cohesive 'Britishness', but a fragmented 'Britishness'. I have met many nice good people from all parts of England.
I look to southern Ireland, and Dublin in particular. I see a growing immgrant population, there are class issues. And I see the differences between greater Dublin (the Pale) and the rest of Ireland, I also know of the difference between north and south.
And looking at unionism, I see more in common with the Dublin Pale than with London and England. Of course Dublin has things that are more in common with London than in some parts of Ireland. And I again think of the layers of identity and that these layers are thicker and thinner in some and not in the same order. Traveling thoughout Ireland I have met many nice good people.

[Jim]

I dont know what Britishness is but at the same time I do. I dont see myself as British. I can identify with English people and Scottish people to a certain degree and realise all these countries have a lot of history together but it doesnt make me want to be British because of it.

I live in England now and I'm only in Belfast a week or two every few months and have met loads of English people and in general the English are no where near as friendly as back home but thats just how a lot were brought up. The whole stiff upper lip attitude is really obvious here even in working class areas. What DOES bind Ireland and NI, and Britain toghether are things like the class issues; the council estates and middle class neighbourhoods look the exact same and traditionally/historically we're all white before immigration from previous colonies. We both like a drink and eat a lot of the same food whereas in mainland europe french, german, etc are a lot more different. I'm sweet with that, but it doesnt make me British when most of it is as much Irish as British.

Britishness doesnt exist much in council estates in England. I've never seen someone fly a union jack outside their home in Wythenshawe or Salford or wherever else, they fly st. george's crosses and thats about it, most call themselves English, not British, and only use British for passports and the term "white british" for application forms to things. After the Scottish elections the SNP are the biggest party yet by no means are they a majority yet, Scotland is quickly losing its British identidy, a lot never even had one. Its happening in England only on a smaller scale. The three main unionist by nature parties (tory, libdem and labour) are only starting to use Britishness in election campaigns lately because of the growing threat of English nationalism and the fact that Gordon Brown is Scottish and not English has caused a huge fuss with the English because they dont want to be ruled by a Scot regardless of the idea of Britishness. When Irish were going to England by the boatloads there was a lot of racism against Irish people looking for work or whatever else and they were looked down on. Was it because the english saw them as their british brothers? my hole, they were saw as irish and saw themselves as english. the british identidy didnt really exist unless you were in the army or a politician.

I'm not against Britishness, I dont give a fuck what Scotland or England do with their borders because England is NOT going to pay out to NI every year to keep it when they'll have their own problems. But I would say that in NI Britishness is used in a reactionary sense that eventually just got taken for granted. If I grew up on the shankill I'd be saying I was British.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am not against Britishness either. But I do wonder how it is relevant to Ireland and especially to people living in the north of Ireland. And looking at the type Britishness that the likes of Jack Straw and other English politicians talk about, I note they exclude the type of Britishness that has been displayed here.

[Jim]

I've been trying to work it out for a while too and have noticed time and time again that everything Labour campaign to be British doesnt usually apply to NI, it rarely even applies to Scotland and only lately have Labour acknowledged how strong nationalism is growing in Scotland.

Most importantly there is a new generation of British people who are infact, not white or christian. They're asians that follow religions like islam, shikism and hindu. How can they identify with whats traditionally white and british?

Found this on the internet and thought it was funny
Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV. And the most British thing of all? Suspicion of anything foreign.

only joking.