Do the English actually have a football league?

[Bilk]

Ok, the matches are played in England and the teams have English sounding names, even a few of the players have English sounding names (But many of them are from Ireland, Scotland or Wales). But do we have an English premeirship. Personally I don't think so. They (the English) have a bunch of clubs owned by foreigners, littered with foreign players who are managed by just about anyone as long as they are not English. (And this includes their national team). The top clubs in England are almost apopplectic with rage because UEFA and FIFa are thinking about putting a limit of 5 foreign players on teams representing national leagues in international competitions. Shit that just wouldn't be right would it
How can English people support and take pride in English clubs, how can they even pretend that the club with their town or City name has any connection whatever with their town or City. They take Credit for, and feel proud about, what their local teams do in the world of football. When they don't have anything close to being a local team.

[Harry]

Football is a truly global game now, more than it has ever been. English teams, well at least the top 4 are amongst the best in the world. An all English European Cup final proves the dominance of the English teams.

I do agree with some of what you are saying and locals should be given more of a chance. Man Utd have a very English team. Liverpool have a few Scousers who are the spine of the team. Its important to have a local input and i wouldn't be against some sort of a limit.

Its not just England. Inter Milan when they played Liverpool only fielded one Italian. If we treat footballers as Pros then why should we limit or dictate to them where they can play??

[Jim]

It wouldn't be fair to put a cap of 5 foreign players in international leagues representing national leagues.

Why?

United and Chelsea are now in the final of the Champions league yet with the exception of Rooney and Lampard their best players are foreign, whereas Man City have one of the best youth academies in Europe and we put out more than half of our team as English starting and can (and do) sub in 3 more English players, not to mention two Irish players (Irish players in the Premier league has been going on for decades long before foreign players came in anyway). Ontop of that, we have a good 3 out on loan doing excellent on Championship teams and around the UK and our youth team just won the FA youth cup against Chelsea.

Our English side would do in Uniteds or Liverpools or Chelseas side any day. And we are looking to take back Shaun Wright Philips from Chelsea and he's easily one of the best sprinters in the league but they won't let him do it at Chelsea because he's competing with too many players.

How is that fair that Chelsea would be in the Champions league on a foreign team and have to play it with a more English side when the English side didn't earn it? Or Arsenal, especialy Arsenal.

I don't care if we have a load of players coming in from all around the world, the fans are still there, the fans are English or at the very least from the UK or Ireland (unless is Singapore United) and its the same fans that go week in, week out, paying between £500 to £1000 for their season tickets, traveling to away matches, meeting the players, egging on the players, supporting the players, and sometimes we turn some of those players into proper fans of the club aswell. We done it with Goater who was a blue through and through and we have done it with Elano who loves the place and the fans and shows it every home match.

Besides, Italy are full of foreign players and a lot of italian players only play in the Serie A teams because they want on the Italian national team, a lot would rather be sitting in London or Manchester or Liverpool on an expensive wage and in the media, the fame and the hundreds of thousands of football fans out every saturday and sunday day across the country.

Manchester City is still Manchester City even if we are becomming the Brazilian national team quite quickly, Manchester United are still Manchester United even if they're got half of Europe playing for them, Liverpool are still scouse bindippers

[earl]

I think any caps on foreign players is a ridiculous idea. Having more English in the league will not improve the standard of their home players football. If an English player was good enough for the premiership, he'd be playing. Simple as. The standard of the English footballers is all down to youth development. How can a player get better if you make it easier for them to get to the top? The harder it is, the harder they should work at it.

[Bilk]

Wait a minute I think some people are getting confused here, improving the standard is not the point here, it is honesty in sport. The bulk of an English team should be made up of English players. There were three socalled English teams in the semi finals of the champions league, you would be hard pushed to get one English team from all 3. And if you managed it they would've been dumped out in the league stage. Come on lads don't make excuses for this, like it's a global market and all that shit. We are talking about football teams that once meant something to the local community. Not a global commodity. This league begins with money and ends with money, nothing else matters, not even the football. Except as an advert for the spinoff products, which are a total ripoff
Do you honestly call the two teams in the final of the chapions league English teams? I can't even be bothered looking for the results of Spurs anymore, something I did all my life. How can you get excited at a soccer game where you cannot even pronounce most of the players names correctly.
My point was how can they say it's an English league, how can the fans get excited about a team of players and a manager who, before they were brought here didn't even know where the town or City of the supporters was. Come on, you can't pretend for one minute that the Man U team represents Manchester, the Arsenal team even come close to representing a team from North London, ditto the Chelsea team. And Liverpool, you got to be joking.
This league is about nothing only money, the supporters of these teams would be as well going to the stock market and (at least they'd get in there for free, not the 45 quid a shot these teams charge to get in) cheering on the biggest companies when their share price rises. The best team in the league then would be the business at the top of the footsie 100.
The managers of these clubs earn more than most of the top business executives. And I haven't even got to the players yet, and these people represent the ordrinary working man/woman in Manchester, Liverpool, London etc? I don't think so, anyone who supports any of these teams in the premeireship, needs to stand back and take a long hard look at what it is they are supporting. It's definately not their local footie team. And the league is definately not an English one.

[Jim]

I'll support my team no matter who plays for them. If they bring my team respect and success I don't care if they come from Mars.

Local communities are still behind their teams, you'll be hard pressed to find a Man City fan not enjoying this season apart from the shite in the past week or two; its still Man City to us, the rivalries still exist and the players get in on that.

If you want all English teams that mean shite all and win shite all and mean shite all, go support your local Championship side.

And yes Blik I would 100000% agree, the Man U team doesn't represent Manchester there is only one team from Manchester and London/Trafford/Singapore United is not it.

Maybe you're just supporting the wrong clubs, I get City tickets for £15 from the Manc student union and have went free loads for helping out the club.

The clubs represent their fans, they always have and always will, I'm not complaining with Elano being Brazilian or Dunne being Irish and no United fan is complaining with Ronaldo being Portuguese, and no bindipper is complaining with Torres being Spanish. Its as English as its fans, just about every league in Europe has foreign players, the EPL is no exception.

Fans clearly do get behind our teams. United bring in at least 60,000 from every match, most are cockneys! City are over 40,000 every match, Arsenal has a season ticket waiting list spanning seasons nevermind months.

[Harry]

I think you are missing the point Bilk. These players represent the City they play for. Liverpool full of Spanish but they are representing Liverpool not Spain, likewise any foreigner who plays for any of the English sides then they are representing that side and no one else.

So unless your team is full of locals then we shouldn't support them??? No way mate. I agree with you about money in the game but i can't agree with you on anything else.

[Bilk]

May 3, 2008 8:02:11 GMT Harry said:

I think you are missing the point Bilk. These players represent the City they play for. Liverpool full of Spanish but they are representing Liverpool not Spain, likewise any foreigner who plays for any of the English sides then they are representing that side and no one else.

So unless your team is full of locals then we shouldn't support them??? No way mate. I agree with you about money in the game but i can't agree with you on anything else.

The biggest problem is, years ago the clubs were owned by local people. They cared about the club, but mostly they cared about the fans. The fans were everything to those clubs they were their bread and butter. Now SKY is their bread and butter, and the fans are not so important. It's a sad but true fact of life. I have LFCTV, it's Liverpool TV, but this would be true of any club in the old first division. I watch the bygone days on it all the time, even though I'm not a Liverpool fan. It's facinating to hear the old managers talking to players and telling them they should be proud to play for their club and it's fans. I remember Shankly in one programe telling one of the players, these people pay your wages and you will go out there and shake hands with as many of them as you can get to. He was injured and not playing that day. Another guy was on, (The programe was about Shankly) This guy had met shankly in London and was about to sign for Liverpool (the guy was telling the story) He stupidly said to Shankly "By the way, where is liverpool?" Shankly tore up the contract and walked out.
I can still name you the spurs team of the sixties, the whole of the sixties. 10 years one team, same eleven players and a few reserves. Most clubs now you couldn't name the team of the last 10 weeks, you'd get it wrong one or two of em would have left, or came to the club. It's more like a game of chess, the men move about the leagues like chess pieces. A transfer window opens and all the usual suspects are in there with the cheque book open. They do not represent the town or city whose team they are playing for. They represent their agent and where he can next get them a purse. No point in talking here, the young don't understand the word loyalty, these players are loyal only to their bank account.
Football today is about money mate, like all things in the world today. We worship the god of money. Even the bit about playing for your country, they don't get paid enough to play for their country, that is the honest truth of the matter. Their loyalty is to their bank account. Don't let the kissing of a shirt fool you, these guys who run up the pitch kissing their shirt. They should be in Holywood making films the acting is so good. Two weeks later for the right money and they are gone, kissing some other shirt around the world. Look at Rooney, born and rared in Liverpool, a hotbed of football tradition, moved from Everton to United for the money, for no other reason. Beckham, he's just a money machine, he used his place on the England team to promote the David Beckham plc. That's the only reason he played. The Man can barely spell his name and he's a multi millionaire. I could go on but it's too boring, the people in all this who are the idiots are the fans. They keep the whole thing going, they don't care about anything only success. I wouldn't mind but it's almost impossible for them to see a game live, except on SKY. Roy Keane got it right, the pink gin swigging fans who attend the games now run sport. Most of the time they can be found up in the hospitality lounge not watching the game, but they are the first to get tickets, not the fans. The clubs no longer give a shit about the fans. Look at all the fans revolts there have been over the years, they mean nothing because the real fans mean nothing to the clubs.

[Bilk]

May 2, 2008 21:32:58 GMT Jim said:

I'll support my team no matter who plays for them. If they bring my team respect and success I don't care if they come from Mars.

Local communities are still behind their teams, you'll be hard pressed to find a Man City fan not enjoying this season apart from the shite in the past week or two; its still Man City to us, the rivalries still exist and the players get in on that.

If you want all English teams that mean shite all and win shite all and mean shite all, go support your local Championship side.

And yes Blik I would 100000% agree, the Man U team doesn't represent Manchester there is only one team from Manchester and London/Trafford/Singapore United is not it.

Maybe you're just supporting the wrong clubs, I get City tickets for £15 from the Manc student union and have went free loads for helping out the club.

The clubs represent their fans, they always have and always will, I'm not complaining with Elano being Brazilian or Dunne being Irish and no United fan is complaining with Ronaldo being Portuguese, and no bindipper is complaining with Torres being Spanish. Its as English as its fans, just about every league in Europe has foreign players, the EPL is no exception.

Fans clearly do get behind our teams. United bring in at least 60,000 from every match, most are cockneys! City are over 40,000 every match, Arsenal has a season ticket waiting list spanning seasons nevermind months.

At every step you are making my point, you are not complaining, well you should be. The owners and multi millon pound managers and players are feeding of people like you. They are laughing at you, while their bank accounts swell. They treat you like the idiots that you are, as soon as they think they have sold the last shirt to the last fan, they change it. So the merry go round starts over again, and the money keeps rolling in. Try having a kid who hasn't got the latest shirt, they bleed their fans dry. Time was when teams were there to entertain the fans, now they are there to take every last possible penny from the fans. And they fall for it. I had the spurs kit of the sixties, all of the sixties, once I had it I had it do you get me. You will be lucky to have the Man U/Chelsea/Liverpool etc etc kit for the present six months. Because as soon as you've bought it, it's obsolete. You can live in your airy fairy world where you believe these multi million pound prima donnas represent you and whatever city they happen to be playing for this week if you like. I am not just as stupid as that.

I am lucky enough to remember why Football clubs were called clubs, that's because that's what they were CLUBS, not Plc's. And the most important members of that club were the fans. You can take pride in players who, until your club bought them, you had never heard of if you like. I followed clubs whose players showed some loyalty to the club through the good times and the bad. Just watch the prima donnas if the club they are playing for today happens to have a bad season and get relegated. They will be running off to their agent asking him to find them another team where they can shine like God promised they would. None of them represent the club they play for, they represent themselves. And before you start reeling of players you know who stick with clubs, that is because those clubs are successful.

[Jim]

I agree to a certain extent I'm not trying to make it out that I'm not, I just don't see it as much of a bad thing as you do. Its inevitable to happen because football is the worlds most popular sport and the english premier league is the biggest in the world, more people watch it every saturday or sunday in countries like malasyia and thailand than they do in england! so the clubs are going to go for where the money is, season tickets and general tickets into a good sized stadium don't make nearly enough money compared to the money sky and setanta are handing them for tv rights.

When I was real young I was a big time Man U supporter and had just about every kite, home and away, every year.I gradually grew out of football and when I got back into it United where a different team with different goals and I turned to City because they are local to where I'm living and they at the minute remind me of how it use to be. I'm an out and out blue and even with foreign takeovers its still, morally anyway, the fans club, not Franks club.

Surely you still like to see Spurs do well, after winning the Carling Cup and putting on some good performances this season.

I wasn't old enough to remember clubs in the 80s, I was 4 by 1990.

The mportance of football now is in Europe, the UEFA and Champions league, domestic leagues have turned into micky mouse cups but that was always going to happen because of how the premier league started and why it started, to make money.

[Bilk]

May 3, 2008 11:58:27 GMT Jim said:

I agree to a certain extent I'm not trying to make it out that I'm not, I just don't see it as much of a bad thing as you do. Its inevitable to happen because football is the worlds most popular sport and the english premier league is the biggest in the world, more people watch it every saturday or sunday in countries like malasyia and thailand than they do in england! so the clubs are going to go for where the money is, season tickets and general tickets into a good sized stadium don't make nearly enough money compared to the money sky and setanta are handing them for tv rights.

When I was real young I was a big time Man U supporter and had just about every kite, home and away, every year.I gradually grew out of football and when I got back into it United where a different team with different goals and I turned to City because they are local to where I'm living and they at the minute remind me of how it use to be. I'm an out and out blue and even with foreign takeovers its still, morally anyway, the fans club, not Franks club.

Surely you still like to see Spurs do well, after winning the Carling Cup and putting on some good performances this season.

I wasn't old enough to remember clubs in the 80s, I was 4 by 1990.

The mportance of football now is in Europe, the UEFA and Champions league, domestic leagues have turned into micky mouse cups but that was always going to happen because of how the premier league started and why it started, to make money.

Exactly they have destroyed football at the local level in the persuit of money. The most important thing for a footballer was to win the domestic trophies, that's what kept the fans happy. Anything they did in Europe was just a bonus. Only that didn't suit Rupbert Murdoch, a feckin Austrailian, who knows as much about football as I know about snipe shooting.

The first to suffer was the League Cup (Now called the Carling cup I believe, even it has had several sponsers over the years) Teams were putting out 2nd strings in it they had so little interest in it. Now the same thing is happening in the FA cup. it's turned into a mickey mouse tournament too. I can remember when on FA cup final day the whole country was abuzz. It's almost like people are thinking now, it's for free on terestrial tv, can't be any good. If it's not on Sky it must be shit. They've been brainwashed. Everything in football is geared around money. No one is allowed to play a match unless it's on a day and at a time that suits sky, not the fans. I can't make up my mind whos winning the SPL because Setanta does the same thing there.

[Jim]

There are still hundreds of clubs at local levels, the Championship teams are still very local and fairly big compared to other leagues' lower divisions.

TBH I could go and support a number of teams in the Championship and there will be none of the tripe you get at Premiership level, and know plenty that do and ignore the Premiership, a good mate of mine is a big time Southampton supporter and they're about to get relegated and he's spent the past week in the dumps about it, genuine fan, you rarely get that with top 4 teams.

Can you picture United falling below 6th for a season? Most of their fans would end up being scousers tomorrow.

Anyone who supports lower-mid league teams like Man City know hardship compared to top 4 teams and we are certainly not glory hunters either.

[Harry]

Bilk i fully agree with you about the way money has destroyed the game. Players are now more out of touch with the fans than they have ever been. Just look at my own club and how it is being ripped apart by 2 money grabbing Yanks with no interest in Liverpool at all.

Maybe i can't call Liverpool my club as i'm not from Liverpool but i do. I've supported them as far back as i remember. I've never supported anyone else. Always Liverpool first. Now i do support Ballymena and i followed them home and away for many years and it is great but Liverpool always took priority. I was a member of the LFC club that runs out of the Ladysmith arms in Harryville and i saved my cash and went to as many games as possible.

Now it feels like you are telling me i'm stupid for doing that. Its my passion. You have named a few players that have moved on. Rooney, did he only move for money?? or did he move to better his career?? He was too good for Everton. If someone leaves a job to better there career outside of football its a good move but in football they are just money grabbers?? I think Rooney was a bad example.

Now certainly there are players who money is everything and where they play means nothing to them.

I think your issue isn't really about the English game but the game as a whole. You see it as the big money men creaming off the working classes. I could be with you on that and i do agree that Sky TV etc rip us all off.

What can we do Bilk??

[Bilk]

May 4, 2008 8:53:39 GMT Harry said:

Bilk i fully agree with you about the way money has destroyed the game. Players are now more out of touch with the fans than they have ever been. Just look at my own club and how it is being ripped apart by 2 money grabbing Yanks with no interest in Liverpool at all.

Maybe i can't call Liverpool my club as i'm not from Liverpool but i do. I've supported them as far back as i remember. I've never supported anyone else. Always Liverpool first. Now i do support Ballymena and i followed them home and away for many years and it is great but Liverpool always took priority. I was a member of the LFC club that runs out of the Ladysmith arms in Harryville and i saved my cash and went to as many games as possible.

Now it feels like you are telling me i'm stupid for doing that. Its my passion. You have named a few players that have moved on. Rooney, did he only move for money?? or did he move to better his career?? He was too good for Everton. If someone leaves a job to better there career outside of football its a good move but in football they are just money grabbers?? I think Rooney was a bad example.

Now certainly there are players who money is everything and where they play means nothing to them.

I think your issue isn't really about the English game but the game as a whole. You see it as the big money men creaming off the working classes. I could be with you on that and i do agree that Sky TV etc rip us all off.

What can we do Bilk??

Well the solution is easy, but difficult to implement, because of what you have just said above.

You see! what the money grabbers thrive on is this. Your wish to have your club be successful every single year and to hell with all the romantic stuff. Winning is everything, no in between, no excuses, if they don't win silverware this year then heads must roll. There isn't allowed to be any bad years when the club are rebuilding.
The premiereship is about as exciting as a wet weekend in Blackpool. It is the same old teams year in year out who are at the top with a few points between them. It's decided on who makes the first mistake. And as soon as that mistake is made, the manager is sacked a new one comes in and the chequebook is got out and Euope and the rest of the world is raided to find the players who won't make that mistake next season.
The reason for this is the top 4 or 5 are the teams with the money. They were the first to embrace Sky and everything it stood for, while the others were more reluctant and are now trying to play catchup. We have finished up with a league of unrecognisable players with unrecognisable managers, whose teams happen to play at English football grounds, and the team have English sounding names. They are owned by foreigners, and run by foreigners, and supported by idiots, who think "THEIR" team is out there playing for them.

Back to the solution, that is still, believe it or not, in the hands of the fans. You, the fans of ManU' Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and a few other teams to a much lesser extent, are what keeps this money-go-round going. You buy the shirts, you pay for Sky, you pay the exhorbitant prices charged to get in to see a game. You thrill in the success of a team that happens to have the same name as a team you have supported all your life. But that's about their only connection with the team you started out supporting. It's name and the ground it plays at, and even that is changing, some of the grounds are not big enough to bring in enough money. They (the foreign owners) want to build grounds with shopping malls etc etc attached, when is enough going to be enough for the fans of these teams?
Fans should make demands!
Like for instance, there be someway, other than the fact that these players play for a team I support, that I can connect with them. That starts with them being at least British, at least that makes them local in some way.
Those demands will be met when the fans of these money making machines come into the real world and realise what it is they are supporting. Not a football team representing their area, town or City, that was brought to fruition by the manager of that team. That is the only team I would feel a connection with or take pride in. Not one that was bought with a cheque book that has no limits. There is no pride in that, there is only expectation, to always be a winner. In this situation there is no pride in winning, only the hurt and disappointment when you don't.
The fans should stop thinking like these multi-millionaires want them to. And start thinking like true football fans of old. When my team went on a pitch and gave their all for the club and the team, that was all I ever asked of them. And in that situation, win, lose or draw I was proud of them.

The solution? Stop buying the shirts, stop subscribing to Sky, stop supporting players who have no meaning for you or anyone you know. Stop buying products endorsed by these foreign players because they play for what you think is your team. Do this for a season or two in enough numbers, and the money making machine will crumble. And the multi-millionaire bastards will take their investments elsewhere and allow football to be football again. Because your wonderfully successful club is just that to them, an investment.

[earl]

Sounds like you're a GAA man at heart Bilk! Locals, playing for the love of the game for their club and county.

You go to any local football fan who supports their home town premiership team if they'd rather see more locals playing on the team, or premiership and European titles, and you'll find where their hearts lie. The great Liverpool teams of yore weren't even full of locals. King Kenny ain't scouse by birth.

And the standard of football today far surpasses the football 'back in the day'. There are downsides that you have pointed out, but IMHO, I believe that the good points far exceed the bad points.