Brian Keenan RIP

[collina]

May 24, 2008 16:34:02 GMT Harry said:

WASP, i have no interest or sympathy for IRA men but i respect that others may feel different. It doesn't cost anything to say nothing. Let those who want to show respect do so.

I hope this doesn't sound patronising, but I've always found your approach to debating a refreshing departure from the more traditional loyalist implacable style.

To my mind their is no difference between republican and loyalist paramilitarism. To disrespect Keenan and Collins is is to disrespect Carson and Ervine . They are all cut from the same cloth. And maybe WASP needs to cast his eyes to our neighbouring Island to find the origins of movements lead by Spence, Adams and Arafat.

[Blue Angel]

Outspoken and descents into personal insults are two different things WASP and lately you are constantly confusing the two. No ammount of naked agression can replace a well reasoned argument. It may in the short term be more intimidating or carry more weight (especially in the real world ) but in the long run it reveals itself for what is full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

I don't agree with loyalist paramilitaries obviously but like others have said here I can respect the more ideologically committed ones through the years who showed some thought about their position. What I don't respect on EITHER side is those who have become so inured to violence that they have developed instituionalised mind sets where they will automatically advocate violence. I'd like to see the gun and bomb permanently removed from Irish politics but that can only happen where both sides admit the violence in the end became self-perpetuating and brought no returns. I am not a die hard republican who automatically celebrates violence (and Indeed i doubt there are very few people who answer to such a description), Brian Keenan did use violence but there was rather more to the man than that and barstool loyalism as evinced by you here is no more attractive or sensible than barroom republicanism which i have seen evinced by others in the past.

[Wasp]

BA suggest and assume all you want. Keenan is vermin, end of. Now when republicans show true respect I will do likewise. You yourself refused to condemn a Protestant being burned to death from a republican attack yet whole heartedly condemned a Catholic being burned to death that was attacked by loyalists.

With that mindset you have no room to preach to anyone about their views or opinions, your views on that alonme which I mentioned above speaks absolute volumes which are crystal clear.

[Blue Angel]

in reference to that i would condemn a protestant civilian been burnt death or a catholic or hindu or jew or any other civilian or anyone else in the troubles as i think the death of civilians was one of the more pointless fall-out effects of the war. But I would not condem a soldier been attacked or shot whether protestant or catholic as i believe it was a war and by the same token if an ira volunteer was shot in a shooting match with the british army generally i would regard it as merely the result of been engaged in a war.

And wasp you yourself have now in the past few days made comments on issues which show us that in trying to stand on the moral high ground you like so many others who have tried that in regards to the situation in the north eventually find it impossible. Of course as harry suggests you could adopt the position republicans here have on tributes to loyalists, if you disagree don't post on the thread but critique the individual elsewhere.

Or perhaps we are failing to see that 'big picture' which has become your stock phrase lately.

[Wasp]

in reference to that i would condemn a protestant civilian been burnt death or a catholic or hindu or jew or any other civilian or anyone else in the troubles as i think the death of civilians was one of the more pointless fall-out effects of the war. But I would not condem a soldier been attacked or shot whether protestant or catholic as i believe it was a war and by the same token if an ira volunteer was shot in a shooting match with the british army generally i would regard it as merely the result of been engaged in a war.

You are a liar. You refused to condemn the burning of Protestants at La Mon, you went off on some waffle at other times about there being no point condemning such acts. After other similar posts I asked you would you condemn the burning to death of a Catholic from a loaylaist attack and you answered that obviously you would etc.

And wasp you yourself have now in the past few days made comments on issues which show us that in trying to stand on the moral high ground you like so many others who have tried that in regards to the situation in the north eventually find it impossible. Of course as harry suggests you could adopt the position republicans here have on tributes to loyalists, if you disagree don't post on the thread but critique the individual elsewhere.

I will post my true feelings and thoughts, not how you or anyone else wants me to post.

Or perhaps we are failing to see that 'big picture' which has become your stock phrase lately.

Maybe I am becoming more like a republican everyday.

[Wasp]

May 24, 2008 22:37:33 GMT @setanta said:

May 24, 2008 22:36:10 GMT Wasp said:

Maybe I am becoming more like a republican everyday.

You are indeed behaving exactly like the average member of RSF or the 32CSM.

Bit like you and your party commemorating dissidents from the 50's then.

[Blue Angel]

i think the train got derailed at some point....

[Blue Angel]

actually wasp in reference to la mons what i was at pains to point out was to avoid that special olympic sport of 'whataboutery' that is popular in ireland. La Mons was wrong yep but so were some loyalist attacks on similar inoffensive targets. We could sit here all night dragging up oppossing examples - I'm just not sure what the actual point would be.

[Wasp]

Do you commemorate dissidents from the 50's, do you class the rira etc as dissidents with no political mandate and little support??

[Blue Angel]

for now yes - of course odd events have happened before in irish history and irish republicanism has only on rare occassions been supported by the majority of the county but i can't see the rira ever acquring mass support. if rira men were killed fighting british troops then i'd respect their sacrifice but wouldn't agree with their logic in carrying on the war. And I fail to see what this has to do with either the thread or my last post.

[Wasp]

May 24, 2008 22:49:34 GMT Blue Angel said:

actually wasp in reference to la mons what i was at pains to point out was to avoid that special olympic sport of 'whataboutery' that is popular in ireland. La Mons was wrong yep but so were some loyalist attacks on similar inoffensive targets. We could sit here all night dragging up oppossing examples - I'm just not sure what the actual point would be.

Still avoiding what I said I see. Are you man enough to admit what you said about not condemning a Protestant being burned to death afetr being attacked by republicans and clearly stating that obviously you would condemn a Catholic being burned to death if they were attacked by loyalists.

[Jim]

May 24, 2008 22:49:52 GMT Wasp said:

Do you commemorate dissidents from the 50's, do you class the rira etc as dissidents with no political mandate and little support??

Personally I don't think I've ever been a commemoration or funeral for anyone other than Provisionals and pre-civil war IRA.