Time for All Ireland Soccer?

[Bilk]

Apr 10, 2008 22:15:52 GMT Jim said:

wasp said:

And Jim if you can't accept our community and its grievances about having our flag being classed as offensive etc etc then it probably won't last either.

Jim you have constantly said about being born in Ireland etc so maybe your attempts here could be seen as nothing more than goading or shit stirring. I AM NOT accusing you of that but why have you done what only seems as a turnaround. The republics team is by far the closest to your aspirations, it has your flag and anthem. The Ulster flag and GSTQ according to you does not represent you in anyway, fair enough well then why not support the team that does??

You can't go on about you being born in Ireland and it is Ireland that you belong to, their flag and anthem represents you etc and then turn round and say you were born in N.I and you are a citizen of the country you were born in as in N.I.

Jim I know plenty of Catholics who support N.I,one of whom has Ulster till I die tatooed across his shoulders. Some of these same Catholics at least would fall into the nationalist bracket, they would like to see a U.I someday and some of them don't. But the fact remains they can goto the matches and sing their heart out for their team with no feelings of being excluded or anything like it.

It is about time that republicans realized that there are two teams on this island and they are free to support the team of their choice instead of complaining about a team from a country that they hardly recognize etc.

Here, hold on a minute. Lets be very honest, you have made no secret of holding contempt at my flag and even refuse to support the irish rugby team over it. As a citizen of NI I have a right to be represented by that team, with a flag that I can get behind and support, that wontgreat at uneasy atmosphere especially at this new place. I'm not goading and I'm not shit stirring I'm giving my honest opinion on what people think about the ulster banner, whats worse is its a flag of the old stormont regime that absolutely despised my community and tried to keep them out for as long as possible, that is why we don't like it, a reminder of a bad past. Why the jesus can you not see that?

I said I'm from Ireland, that doesn't mean I can't say I'm from NI, NI is still on the island of Ireland, and you know fine rightly Ireland as political unit doesn't exist, I've never claimed it does either.

I know plenty of nationalists that support NI - I AM ONE. It doesnt mean I'm going to accept everything about it I still have opinions on what I think should be changed. If you see that as pandering to nationalists (as Harry called it) then thats you and your communities opinion on the matter, it still doesnt make my request less legitimate.

Its about time Unionists realised that they can't control everything and pretend to block us out when they don't like it. Its a laugh hearing all this shite, republicans do this, republicans do that, republicans need to realise this, when you can't even accept a flag that would represent everyone.

Jim does the tricolour or the Irish national anthem represent a pretty sizeable minority of unionists in the republic? Do the the statues and memorials around and about the republic of Ireland, particularly in Dublin, represent those people? Don't you think that after partition the same thing you claim was happening to your community was happening to the unionist community in the south? The difference was they lived, and still do, with their lot, or they left. They don't want memorials to dead UVF men in Dublin to accomodate them, nor do they bleat for parity of esteem for the union flag or the ulster flag. Why do you think that is? It's because partition came about by agreement. Your community as you call it never ever stood by that agreement and never will. Whereas the unioists in the south did. They do not harp back to the days of colonial rule and tell lies about their history, their representatives made an agreement, and while not happy about it, it was an agreement. They don't bleat about parity of esteem and representation. They definately didn't start a murder campaign to go back to the colonial days. There is little or no representatio in the flags and emblems of the republic that is representative of them. They get on with their lives and support the national teams and sports people without dragging it down into the mire of sectarian politics.

[Jim]

Apr 11, 2008 12:58:14 GMT Harry said:

Jim you're even resorting to now calling the team Orange!!! WTF

What do you want Jim?? Do you want an 'all ireland' team, do you want a UI?? If we were to change the flag, anthem etc would you suddenly become Northern Irish and be happy with oit?? Would you lose the long term aims of Irish Unity?? If you and the majority of your community would, i'd be happy to change the flag, anthem in a second.

However i doubt that would be the case so it would be merely another step in the right direction towards a UI via the backdoor.

Its simple. You have a team to support who bear your flag and sing your anthem. You are free to choose. Like players are free to choose which country they pledge their loyalty to as Earl keeps talking about it under the GFA. I can accept this also. What i can't accept is someone wanting it all.

The orange referal was to your "green eyed monster" comment ages ago that I had just remembered about. I dont actually believe the team is orange, just a bit of sarcasm.

I always have the long term aim of a united Ireland Harry, the difference with me and others is that I'm perfectly happy to accept the NI state for the time being, I'm realistic in my goals and I think its more important to solve our problems first before we start talking about redrawing borders. I thought I made that clear a long time ago, but maybe not.

Players are technically free to do so, but why are the IFA going to FIFA when the FAI try and let players do this? Is it not clear that these players have no interest in standing up for this flag or this anthem and would feel more accepted if they wherent there? Its all for the benefit of the NI team.

I'm still genuinely surprised after all we have been through on this board some people have a stick up their arse about changing the flag of the NI team to reflect NIs equal status in the union as any other country.

[Jim]

Apr 11, 2008 13:33:14 GMT Bilk said:

Apr 10, 2008 22:15:52 GMT Jim said:

Here, hold on a minute. Lets be very honest, you have made no secret of holding contempt at my flag and even refuse to support the irish rugby team over it. As a citizen of NI I have a right to be represented by that team, with a flag that I can get behind and support, that wontgreat at uneasy atmosphere especially at this new place. I'm not goading and I'm not shit stirring I'm giving my honest opinion on what people think about the ulster banner, whats worse is its a flag of the old stormont regime that absolutely despised my community and tried to keep them out for as long as possible, that is why we don't like it, a reminder of a bad past. Why the jesus can you not see that?

I said I'm from Ireland, that doesn't mean I can't say I'm from NI, NI is still on the island of Ireland, and you know fine rightly Ireland as political unit doesn't exist, I've never claimed it does either.

I know plenty of nationalists that support NI - I AM ONE. It doesnt mean I'm going to accept everything about it I still have opinions on what I think should be changed. If you see that as pandering to nationalists (as Harry called it) then thats you and your communities opinion on the matter, it still doesnt make my request less legitimate.

Its about time Unionists realised that they can't control everything and pretend to block us out when they don't like it. Its a laugh hearing all this shite, republicans do this, republicans do that, republicans need to realise this, when you can't even accept a flag that would represent everyone.

Jim does the tricolour or the Irish national anthem represent a pretty sizeable minority of unionists in the republic? Do the the statues and memorials around and about the republic of Ireland, particularly in Dublin, represent those people? Don't you think that after partition the same thing you claim was happening to your community was happening to the unionist community in the south? The difference was they lived, and still do, with their lot, or they left. They don't want memorials to dead UVF men in Dublin to accomodate them, nor do they bleat for parity of esteem for the union flag or the ulster flag. Why do you think that is? It's because partition came about by agreement. Your community as you call it never ever stood by that agreement and never will. Whereas the unioists in the south did. They do not harp back to the days of colonial rule and tell lies about their history, their representatives made an agreement, and while not happy about it, it was an agreement. They don't bleat about parity of esteem and representation. They definately didn't start a murder campaign to go back to the colonial days. There is little or no representatio in the flags and emblems of the republic that is representative of them. They get on with their lives and support the national teams and sports people without dragging it down into the mire of sectarian politics.

Unionists in the Republic do not make up nearly 50% of the community. And when it comes to any architecture in Dublin, last time I was there I was taken back by the amount of British occupation era of buildings, that are constantly used even at a government level and are redone and kept in good order. Other than that I don't think a statue of James Connolly with no real Republican context around the corner from the Train Station named after him, and that giant needle will be of much worry to Unionists.

Do not say that my community bleats on about this or that when your own does it. What are we trying to do here, score goals? I'm not interested in that or talking about the histories of each community we can do that in another topic.

Fact is, you dont want to accept an inclusive flag for the NI team, you have shown hostility to it then claim that you don't give a shite, you clearly do, Harry does, Wasp does, why is this? What is so hard about having a flag for everyone in a state as volitile as this where symbols mean the world?

[Bilk]

Apr 11, 2008 16:37:02 GMT Jim said:

Apr 11, 2008 13:33:14 GMT Bilk said:

Jim does the tricolour or the Irish national anthem represent a pretty sizeable minority of unionists in the republic? Do the the statues and memorials around and about the republic of Ireland, particularly in Dublin, represent those people? Don't you think that after partition the same thing you claim was happening to your community was happening to the unionist community in the south? The difference was they lived, and still do, with their lot, or they left. They don't want memorials to dead UVF men in Dublin to accomodate them, nor do they bleat for parity of esteem for the union flag or the ulster flag. Why do you think that is? It's because partition came about by agreement. Your community as you call it never ever stood by that agreement and never will. Whereas the unioists in the south did. They do not harp back to the days of colonial rule and tell lies about their history, their representatives made an agreement, and while not happy about it, it was an agreement. They don't bleat about parity of esteem and representation. They definately didn't start a murder campaign to go back to the colonial days. There is little or no representatio in the flags and emblems of the republic that is representative of them. They get on with their lives and support the national teams and sports people without dragging it down into the mire of sectarian politics.

Unionists in the Republic do not make up nearly 50% of the community. And when it comes to any architecture in Dublin, last time I was there I was taken back by the amount of British occupation era of buildings, that are constantly used even at a government level and are redone and kept in good order. Other than that I don't think a statue of James Connolly with no real Republican context around the corner from the Train Station named after him, and that giant needle will be of much worry to Unionists.

Do not say that my community bleats on about this or that when your own does it. What are we trying to do here, score goals? I'm not interested in that or talking about the histories of each community we can do that in another topic.

Fact is, you dont want to accept an inclusive flag for the NI team, you have shown hostility to it then claim that you don't give a shite, you clearly do, Harry does, Wasp does, why is this? What is so hard about having a flag for everyone in a state as volitile as this where symbols mean the world?

I am going to say this one more time and one more time only "I DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT A FLAG" now is that understood. This started out with you saying you didn't like a certain flag not me, so stop trying to move the goalposts (forgive the pun)

My community bleats on about what is happening to them now, not what happened in the famine, or what Cromwell did to us, because we were unionists or Irish or prods or catholics. It's all crap, because Cromwell did it to everybody, he wsas a bastard. But it's what those who see themselves as Irish go on insessently about. Most of which is green tinted lies, to keep the socalled nationalists on side, and they are taught it from the moment they are able to understand.
And so your argument comes down to numbers now, what happened to the republican argument that numbers werem't what mattered but parity of esteem for both communities, when catholics/nationalists were about 30% of the population of N. Ireland?. I wish someone would call for a referendum, I can assure you you would be far from 50/50 on a UI. You make the wild assunption that all Catholics are rabid republicans like you.
I think you are clutching at straws regarding the building mate, they are hardly monuments to ulster loyalism. And I think you need to go down south and take a look around you, a real look.

Anyway my point still stands about the sizeable minority of unionists still live in the Republic, they either accepted the situation they found themselves in or left.

[Jim]

I don't want to talk about what our communities bleat on about to be very honest, we have been there before. I can't assume a result of a border referendum and neither can you, it has never happened before. What can't be denied is the nationalist community is growing and is already an extremely sizable community for such a minority. Its so large that I would even refrain from using minority/majority terms normally, I just consider it two communities that have the right to be here and thinking of it as a minority/majority situation tries to make one out to be more legitimate than the other with different arguments. Surely you would agree with that analogy?

My argument does not come down to numbers it comes down to what I think is the right thing to do, as citizens of NI they have every right to be represented symbollicaly, they contribute to the country, they pay their taxes to the state, they may even be closet supporters of NI as I was for years but daren't admit it, so the only way to change that is to make the team more acceptable for everyone. I don't give a fuck if it makes it less British or more British, or less Irish or more Irish, that isnt important to me, I have laid out the benefits it will do to football and I will do it again. More support, more younger players not giving into FAI poaching, people who you consider your countrymen taking pride for once something to do with Northern Ireland. I find it hard to compare it to the south with irish unionists because its a completely different situation down there, they didnt have 40 years of secterian violence day in day out and soldiers patrolling their streets and bombs going off virtually every day, they may want to go back to the union or another type of union or may just see themselves as British in the end but they don't make up a huge proportion of the population, I've not seen the numbers to back this up but I'd even say the polish and arabs outnumber them these days. Completely different situation with vaguely similar flags.

We can go on all day about what is right or wrong, but do you really deny that changing the flag to something acceptable to everyone will have beneficial consequences? Why the hostility? Why are you hostile to it?

[Wasp]

Jim tbh if a flag stops you supporting N.I then that is up to you no matter how petty and narrowminded it is. I would agree with your points if there only was 1 international team on this island but there is not. Furthermore you want a U.I so changing the N.I flag is pointless for as far as you are concenred you are happy with N.I existing for 'the time being'. On that alone why should the flag be changed when you have a team and a flag to represent you.

This isn't about a flag, it is about eroding N.I itself and all the British elements within it. Bilk gave a very good post concerning Unionists in the republic and I agree with him 110%.

[Harry]

Jim.....not that i need to speak for Bilk but i'm kind of getting the impression that the flag isn't the issue with him but you keep trying to pull it back to that.

You'll be happy with the state of NI for the time being.........you couldn't of justified my arguement anymore. Why pander to people who have no interest in what you are trying to offer but merely use it as a stepping stone to achieve their long term goals???

You keep talking about people taking pride in NI for once??? Again what are you on about??? I'm proud as punch to be from NI...I'm proud as punch of the NI football team....I'm proud as punch with the teams excellent supporters...

[Jim]

That doesn't answer my question. I don't care if its petty or narrowminded, its how people think, taking the higher ground doesnt solve it and you know how petty people here can be on anything.

Wasp arguments where made on this thread earlier how I should be supporting NI, not the ROI, because NI is the country of my birth and I was originally called a bigot over it, then the bigot comment moved onto different reasons. Now if I am to support ROI like other people where I'm from do, it solves nowt. The IFA will still cry to FIFA why the FAI take their potential players and will still never realise why they are happy to play for the FAI. So if thats your opinion then you should retract your statements you made years ago about how anyone born in NI should play for NI if called up. Make up your mind, do you or do you not want nationalists supporting NI? The biggest change to make is the symbols, make it acceptable, make it fair, make it inclusive and make it welcoming. The ROI doesnt represent me and I made that clear, I don't live in the ROI, a very unionist idea from me ironically. They may fly the Tricolour but I'm not interested in seeing the Tricolour, to me the Tricolour is something to fly on Easter week, if any United Ireland were to happen the Tricolour wouldnt have any place anyway.

This is about a flag, I made it clear it is not eroiding NI of itself. And besides, if not changing a flag for nationalists to get in on supporting NI is your idea of eroding Britishness then maybe you have more issues with your neighbours than I do.

[Jim]

Apr 11, 2008 18:34:47 GMT Harry said:

Jim.....not that i need to speak for Bilk but i'm kind of getting the impression that the flag isn't the issue with him but you keep trying to pull it back to that.

You'll be happy with the state of NI for the time being.........you couldn't of justified my arguement anymore. Why pander to people who have no interest in what you are trying to offer but merely use it as a stepping stone to achieve their long term goals???

You keep talking about people taking pride in NI for once??? Again what are you on about??? I'm proud as punch to be from NI...I'm proud as punch of the NI football team....I'm proud as punch with the teams excellent supporters...

I'm pulling into the flag issue because that is my greviance with the NI team.

You call it pandering, I don't. This is not about any long term goals of a united Ireland. This is about making the flag Northern Ireland football team acceptable to all, internationally that flag does not represent anyone but you. How is that fair? If it was the other way around you would be giving my argument.

If we can do this with schools, with national institutions, put it into the very treaty that brought us peace for the first time in 40 years, if we can put it into practise everywhere else, why not football?

[Bilk]

Apr 11, 2008 18:41:57 GMT Jim said:

Apr 11, 2008 18:34:47 GMT Harry said:

Jim.....not that i need to speak for Bilk but i'm kind of getting the impression that the flag isn't the issue with him but you keep trying to pull it back to that.

You'll be happy with the state of NI for the time being.........you couldn't of justified my arguement anymore. Why pander to people who have no interest in what you are trying to offer but merely use it as a stepping stone to achieve their long term goals???

You keep talking about people taking pride in NI for once??? Again what are you on about??? I'm proud as punch to be from NI...I'm proud as punch of the NI football team....I'm proud as punch with the teams excellent supporters...

I'm pulling into the flag issue because that is my greviance with the NI team.

You call it pandering, I don't. This is not about any long term goals of a united Ireland. This is about making the flag Northern Ireland football team acceptable to all, internationally that flag does not represent anyone but you. How is that fair? If it was the other way around you would be giving my argument.

If we can do this with schools, with national institutions, put it into the very treaty that brought us peace for the first time in 40 years, if we can put it into practise everywhere else, why not football?

I'm confused here, how can the flag of a country represent anyone internationally? "internationally that flag does not represent anyone but you" It represents N Ireland, if you decide it doesn't represent you personally then that's your problem, not the IFA's. So don't lump everyone else in the world to your thinking, or those of the same opinion as you. If N Ireland play an international game that is the flag that is flown, FIFA nor UEFA say take that down it represents nothing and we don't allow it. It is recognised by both bodies as the flag of N. Ireland? If it wasn't it would not be allowed to be flown in an international game.

[Jim]

How can it not mate? The whole point of international matches are about the people of that country, their team, their flag, their anthem, its international. Otherwise there is very little point of nations playing each other. And likewise, if a flag means nowt to you then there will be no harm in changing it will there

It represents N Ireland, it needs to represent the communities that live in N Ireland, or the very purpose of the flag is pointless. Can you not understand that whatsoever? It is the IFA's problem as long as they whinge and yap and complain and moan to FIFA about the FAI taking their potential players. Lets remember it was the IFA that started that one, but they fail to see why these people will prefer the FAI. Why would they play for a team that doesnt want to represent them and their culture?

I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.

Again, my questions ignored. If we can do this with schools, with national institutions, put it into the very treaty that brought us peace for the first time in 40 years, if we can put it into practise everywhere else, why not football?

[Bilk]

Apr 11, 2008 19:05:44 GMT Jim said:

How can it not mate? The whole point of international matches are about the people of that country, their team, their flag, their anthem, its international. Otherwise there is very little point of nations playing each other. And likewise, if a flag means nowt to you then there will be no harm in changing it will there

It represents N Ireland, it needs to represent the communities that live in N Ireland, or the very purpose of the flag is pointless. Can you not understand that whatsoever? It is the IFA's problem as long as they whinge and yap and complain and moan to FIFA about the FAI taking their potential players. Lets remember it was the IFA that started that one, but they fail to see why these people will prefer the FAI. Why would they play for a team that doesnt want to represent them and their culture?

I feel like I am talking to a brick wall.

Again, my questions ignored. If we can do this with schools, with national institutions, put it into the very treaty that brought us peace for the first time in 40 years, if we can put it into practise everywhere else, why not football?

OK you keep bringing politics into this so don't blame me for it this time.

This argument is exactly the same as the one about flags. British schools are funded by the British taxpayer. They have always been integrated/inter denominational, there was absolutely no reason why Catholics/nationalists could not attend those schools. But Catholics nationalists kept the devisions in our people going never sending their kids to those schools because they were British schools. (oh and I forgot to mention they wanted their kids taught the republican version of Irish history) No they created their own Catholic nationalist schools.
Now we have nice new "integrated" schools which are funded by the British taxpayer, and Cathoics nationalists can go to them why? Because we were forced to open these schools, which were the exact same schools with the same curiculum, so that nationalists could personfy the image of the British schools as sectarian. Otherwise what was the point, like the word "integrated" changed the whole ethos of the school? No it didn't, but it looks that way to the world at large.
I would object strongly to a change in the NI flag for that reason and that reason only. I don't give a shit about the flag like I said, but I am totally against changing anything else in this country. Because people like you demand it, so you can say "Look, see, it had to be changed because it was sectrarian". I guess republicans also like the feeling of "Oh look we can make the blue noses do anthing, it may be Northern Ireland by name, but we are the ones with the power" Well feck it, I've had enough.

[Jim]

Ofcourse i've started bringing politics into it, its become a political argument and maybe I was wrong in saying that politics shouldnt be part of it, this is Northern Ireland after all, everything is political. Catholics and nationalists sent their kids to religious schools; I disagree with that as I am non-religious anyway.

We have integrated schools ten years after the agreement and catholics are going to them, so forgetting the past, do you not see that as a significant change?

I counter your argument with stating that changing to flag to one that welcomes nationalists, will slowly but surely break down barriers in society in general, and on the pitch, in the stands, on the streets, even on what they watch on TV (choice of matches), but if you can't agree with that purely because it somehow makes the NI team less British then the reality is you dont want nationalists supporting it at all unless they conform to your national standards, and that my friend is wrong. This isnt about Republicans, I've said nothing of the like and neither has any Republican I know so I don't know where you pulled that load of shite up from at the end of your post.

If you think its us big bad republicans trying to run the show then that is your own paranoia, that is your problem, it just furthers my argument that NI is still not for us if you cant even change a flag to represent both people.

Make up your mind Blik, do you respect your own countrymen? Do you respect them enough to let them be represented on the flag of the country you want them to come to love and support? Or don't you?

[Bilk]

Apr 11, 2008 19:46:12 GMT Jim said:

Ofcourse i've started bringing politics into it, its become a political argument and maybe I was wrong in saying that politics shouldnt be part of it, this is Northern Ireland after all, everything is political. Catholics and nationalists sent their kids to religious schools; I disagree with that as I am non-religious anyway.

We have integrated schools ten years after the agreement and catholics are going to them, so forgetting the past, do you not see that as a significant change?

I counter your argument with stating that changing to flag to one that welcomes nationalists, will slowly but surely break down barriers in society in general, and on the pitch, in the stands, on the streets, even on what they watch on TV (choice of matches), but if you can't agree with that purely because it somehow makes the NI team less British then the reality is you dont want nationalists supporting it at all unless they conform to your national standards, and that my friend is wrong. This isnt about Republicans, I've said nothing of the like and neither has any Republican I know so I don't know where you pulled that load of shite up from at the end of your post.

If you think its us big bad republicans trying to run the show then that is your own paranoia, that is your problem, it just furthers my argument that NI is still not for us if you cant even change a flag to represent both people.

Make up your mind Blik, do you respect your own countrymen? Do you respect them enough to let them be represented on the flag of the country you want them to come to love and support? Or don't you?

I respect those in my country who respect my country and it's institutions. I do not have any respect for those in my country who do not repect my country. Have you got it yet, it's called loyalty to ones country. There are lot of things about this country that I don't like, too many to list, but I don't go around crying about them like a spoiled child who wants everything his or her way. I accept what my country has to offer me A famous line you should remember, because it came from an Irish American. "Ask not what my country can do for me, but what I can do for my country"
Nationalists/republicans have never done anything for this country except try to destroy it.

[Bilk]

Apr 11, 2008 19:46:12 GMT Jim said:

Ofcourse i've started bringing politics into it, its become a political argument and maybe I was wrong in saying that politics shouldnt be part of it, this is Northern Ireland after all, everything is political. Catholics and nationalists sent their kids to religious schools; I disagree with that as I am non-religious anyway.

We have integrated schools ten years after the agreement and catholics are going to them, so forgetting the past, do you not see that as a significant change?

I counter your argument with stating that changing to flag to one that welcomes nationalists, will slowly but surely break down barriers in society in general, and on the pitch, in the stands, on the streets, even on what they watch on TV (choice of matches), but if you can't agree with that purely because it somehow makes the NI team less British then the reality is you dont want nationalists supporting it at all unless they conform to your national standards, and that my friend is wrong. This isnt about Republicans, I've said nothing of the like and neither has any Republican I know so I don't know where you pulled that load of shite up from at the end of your post.

If you think its us big bad republicans trying to run the show then that is your own paranoia, that is your problem, it just furthers my argument that NI is still not for us if you cant even change a flag to represent both people.

Make up your mind Blik, do you respect your own countrymen? Do you respect them enough to let them be represented on the flag of the country you want them to come to love and support? Or don't you?

You can challenge all you like jim, but all I hear from you is republican speak. And I wouldn't trust a republican in Northern Ireland to take my dog for a walk.