Ridding ourselves of the past

[Jim]

And the IRA and its supporters were a product of a broken divided society. So do we keep going around in circles blaming this and that?

[Bilk]

Is there any possible chance we could discuss the thread??? Just once try to discuss what the thread is about, if it makes you unconfortable then don't contribute to it, it's as simple as that. Don't try to drag it off somewhere where you are more comforable because the subject matter is something you don't want to discuss. I know loyalists moving forward while SF is asking for more memorials to dead murderers is something you find hard to handle. In that case don't contribute to this thread.

[Harry]

I've been partly responsible for taking this off thread. Sorry Bilk.

No objections from me if any off topic posts are deleted.

[An Fear Dubh]

I said previously that I felt Bilk's contribution was positive to the forum. And I have listened very carefully when Harry and Bilk comment, because I have found their points constructive. When I first joined I made the error of defending Republican positions under the illusion that such the attack on those positions was because of a lack of understanding by those making the attack. I have since realized that this is not the case and those attacks are not honest misunderstandings of the 'other' tradition but a deliberate distortion for political ends, I use the term 'political point scoring' to describe such posts. Now I also realize that we come mainly from a divided community and that we have inflicted extreme pain on each other. And some of these attacks are understandable if they are manifested by ones own acute personal suffering and the emotions that such pain might bring. So it is impossible to separate the understandable from the 'political point scoring', and I have now left such posts alone.

The positive and constructive side of this forum as Harry pointed out recently and I have learnt to understand, is that people from both 'traditions' can join in honest debate together. The negative and divisive side of this forum is where one 'tradition' tries to gain the high moral ground over the other 'tradition'. Now this will snake its way into honest debate accidental as well as by design, simply because we each come from one tradition and I am aware of none that truly sit in both. And we can not always separate ourselves totally from what we are or the conditions that have created us.

You are right Bilk I do not feel comfortable with the subject matter and I do not want to contribute to that divisiveness like I did in the past. But my reasons are not the ones that you are suggestion or inferring to, they are because I want only to make positive contributions to the forum and go forward and as your topic heading says 'rid ourselves (myself) of the past'. Political point scoring, atrocity counting, or trying to put some sort of measuring stick out, and compare one 'tradition' against the actions of the other are negative actions. None of us have exclusive rights to pain and there is no hierarchy where one pain is more hurtful than another, and one community is no better than the other. I do not see the positive of a topic where only one 'tradition' or the view of one tradition is on topic and any deviation from that is off topic.

I am trying to understand you Bilk and to work out your fears, (I am not suggesting you are scared). And I do truly want to reach out and explore unionism and settle some of my fears and apprehensions. I can only do that with your help. I am very disappointed at the tone and direction you have pointed this topic, I feel let down by you and angry at myself for having faith in your ability to look beyond and over the issues that divide us. I probably credited your obvious experience in forums like this not to make the mistake I made when I first joined this forum. And I did appeal to you in the hope that you would step back.

I am looking for reasons why you felt the need to create this division. Maybe I am to blame, I get the impression from some of your comments that you feel some views being push by Republicans were pushed more than the reality deserves. And I take that criticism on board. Myself, I want honest dialog and if you feel that I am saying something that smells of 'political point scoring' and you do not have the polished rebuttal ready, but would like my tone modified, then say that straight out to me, either in the forum or by private PM. I will respond positively.

You seem to have set your face against reasonable debate or a willingness to rid yourself of the past, but want to go backwards to political point scoring. Having now made my position very clear, I will refrain from further comment on this topic, but reserve the right to address replies to this post from yourself Bilk.

[Bilk]

How can me pointing out a perfect example of loyalist communities trying to move forward, and asking why SF are calling for the building of the very things loyalists are tearing down, be going backwards. If we are going to move forwards, then we have to move forwards together. Not one side doing all the giving and the other all the taking. And a prime example is that we are trying, not always with success, but we are trying to rid ourselves of the evil past of the last 30 years. While republicans want to build memorials to it. So me asking that question is going backwards? No! what I think is, that asking that question is for you uncomfortable and you would rather not discuss it. If the roles were reversed I, like you, would find moving forward quite easy, because it would be moving forward to victory. Don't ask me questions about what my community is doing, just post the positive posts about yours. That would make life very easy for you wouldn't it, then you could pat me on the back or head and tell me how wonderful it is that that is happnening, and I should go away feeling proud. Well I don't feel proud about this, I think we should all be making such gestures, it is not something we should be proud of. It is something that should happen if we have a real peace process. Now my question remains, who is moving forward in this situation. I have been told so many times by nationalists/republicans that my community is incapable of moving forward. The repulican version of moving forward is to tear down everything in this country that represents me, and to replace it with memorials to dead murderers of theirs. I ask you again, is that your idea of republicans moving forward? And try to answer the question without again making unfounded accusations against my community.

[Bilk]

May 17, 2008 18:46:57 GMT Jim said:

And the IRA and its supporters were a product of a broken divided society. So do we keep going around in circles blaming this and that?

I am not blaming anyone for the past, I am talking about the future. We are supposed to have moved away from the devided society you are going on about and moving forward. Answer my question or leave it, like AFD stop raking up what you believe to be the past.

[Wasp]

Maybe bilk you are meaning this type of thing mate.

A memorial garden which glorified loyalist paramilitaries has been transformed into a new playpark and multi-sports area for children in a deprived area of Belfast.
The £90,000 project in Nubia Street, off the Donegall Road in the Village area of the city, has been built on the site of a UVF memorial garden.

Social Development Minister Margaret Ritchie said it has "brought a renewed sense of community identity and pride".

The park was opened just a day after the government said that it now recognised the UVF's ceasefire.

Last May, the UVF said it was assuming "a non-military civilianised role".

Ms Ritchie said the new park had "regenerated a rundown area into an attractive space for the local community".

Children from local primary schools turned up for the grand opening where they were given a chance to roadtest the new equipment.

The project was developed over the last two years by the Greater Village Regeneration Trust and local people, in conjunction with Belfast City Council and the Department of Social Development.

Councillor Bob Stoker said it was an example of how communities were being encouraged to take ownership of and responsibility for their local parks.

Mr Stoker, who chairs the council's parks and leisure committee, said he hoped the new facility would "act as a catalyst for more regeneration work within the neighbourhood".

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/no...403594.stm

[bearhunter]

Brilliant idea. Take the park from the embittered adults and give it to kids. Now, perhaps SF would like to nominate a memorial garden somewhere in NI to be transformed into a playground for children? And while we are on the subject, can Setanta or AFD with their contacts in the Republican Movement. tell me why any memorials on the "nationalist" side seem to be all SF-related ones? As though the entire Nationalist community is filtered through SF?

[Jim]

They aren't, not in West Belfast anyway, and certainly not in other parts where dissidents are stronger.

[earl]

So how many new Republican monuments have been created recently?

[earl]

This thread is partially about Republicans refusal to let the past go, and deals specifically with the issue of monuments being put up. Are there any actual facts and figures on this subject?

[Bilk]

If this is a request for a link well I'm sorry, I'm not putting one up here. It is happening, the most prominent one (or the one that attracted most attention) was a call for white lillies to be put in the hallway os Stormont in memory of dead provies.There are SF run councils wanting to teaar down memorials to war dead, (Nothing to do with loyalist paramilitaries, but war dead) and replace them with memorials to dead provies.

Just one example of their going backwards to being offended

By STEPHEN DEMPSTER Political Editor
SINN Fein plans to purge a town of symbols of Protestant and British culture have been exposed in the minutes of a damning council document·
Republican councillors in Limavady have drawn up a lengthy "petty sectarian wish list" of items they intend to have removed from inside and outside the local council offices in order to create a "neutral environment

ASSAULT
Alderman George Robinson of the DUP said: "This is nothing more than a full-frontal assault on the unionist people, not only of Limavady but of Northern Ireland."

The minutes of a special council committee – which includes SDLP members but which unionists refused to sit on – reveal that councillors did an "audit" of the council buildings last November.

And one by one they decided which items offended them and had to go.

So thorough was their trawl that the document reveals they had to do an internet search before they could establish if they were offended by a statue at the council doors.

After some lengthy debate, they decided they were. And so they want the monument to local man William Massey Ferguson, who left the town in the late 1800s and became Prime Minister of New Zealand, pulled down.

The committee recommendations are due before a full council meeting next Tuesday, at which unionists expect to be out-voted (nine-to-six) by a nationalist majority.

DISGUST
Last night, DUP Alderman and former Mayor of Limavady George Robinson said he was "shocked and disgusted" by what was in the council minutes.

He said he was deeply concerned at what sort of message this would send out to the mainly unionist people of the town of Limavady.

"Unionists knew what this was about and did not sit on the committee, knowing we would be out-voted on any suggestions.

"But picking out the statue of Massey Ferguson beggars belief. It is a tribute to one of the town's most famous and successful sons," said Mr Robinson

"It has been there 10 or 12 years and is causing offence to no one. They are planning to rip down a monument, a tourist attraction, and a tribute to a local man.

"According to Sinn Fein he was first and foremost an Orangeman and he made anti-Catholic speeches."

But Mr Robinson was just as shocked at how petty and "narrow-minded" the inventory of the targeted items was.

As well as the statue the list includes:

* three pictures in a hallway, at least one of which was a gift from a regiment at Ballykelly Army base following a visit to the council;

* a Royal British Legion certificate;

* artwork presented to council by the 8th Infantry Brigade;

* a Charles and Diana mug;

* a little dragon from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards;

* a Royal Engineers paper weight;

* and a 22nd Regiment Cheshire plate.

He said: "As an MLA I sit up at Stormont and in fairness to Sinn Fein there have been times where they have looked at things and seen the bigger picture and not taken this attitude.

"This, though, is a major step backwards for community relations in the Limavady area."

DUP MP for the area Gregory Campbell added his disgust.

[Bilk]

May 19, 2008 8:46:45 GMT earl said:

So how many new Republican monuments have been created recently?

Did I say any had, I said they were being "called for" but they are meeting stiff resistance from local polititions and peaople from the areas concerned.

[earl]

Bilk,

It is happening, the most prominent one (or the one that attracted most attention) was a call for white lillies to be put in the hallway os Stormont in memory of dead provies.

Is this for a particular day of memorial, or permanent? Was this idea said in relation to neutrailising Stormont of symbols, or as a way of balancing a parity of symbols within the building? What were these symbols meant to replace, or were they to be added without any unionist symbol going?

There are SF run councils wanting to teaar down memorials to war dead, (Nothing to do with loyalist paramilitaries, but war dead) and replace them with memorials to dead provies.

As far as I was aware, the issue of neutralising symbols in Council buildings was completely separate to the issue of republican monuments. I'm well aware of what is happening in Limevady (and have aired my disgust on it in the past), but that piece doesn't mention anywhere that SF wants to replace the aforementioned monuments with their own, and infact, I've heard of nowhere where SF are looking to tear down unionist monuments to replace them with their own and specifically in council buildings.


I'm not looking for exact figures here, but if this is a hot topic amongst the unionist community with relation to more and more republican monuments being erected, can someone point me in the direction of the reports of this within the unionist media please?

[Bilk]

May 19, 2008 12:17:35 GMT @setanta said:

It's the Easter Lily to Commerate the 1916 Easter Risings Fallen. Similar to your Poppy, which i respect. And you're OK with the Poppy then I would have thought you'd be OK with the Lily as they both commerate Patriot Dead . Now dont give me the line that the Poppy is Commerating those that died for Freedom and the Lily for Terrorists because the Poppy Commerates all falled British Service Personal. Including the ones that kept Ireland under British rule when the population made it abundently clear at the polls that we wanted Independence.

On your assertion that "There are SF run councils wanting to teaar down memorials to war dead, (Nothing to do with loyalist paramilitaries, but war dead) and replace them with memorials to dead provies", I've never seen that. Where'd you hear it?

Ok the insistance on links is annoying but I will try to find some, I accept without asking for links things that people say on here, but it seems I'm a liar unless if I post something they don't know about.