Ridding ourselves of the past

[Bilk]

We in the loyalist/inionist community tear down our memories of an evil past while republicans try day and daily in places where they are in control to have memorials erected to dead murderers. Typical, I'm glad though that we can understand the hurt these things represent to some, and provide for children instead. What a contrast eh? Yet I hear republicans/natiomalists on here day and daily say that unionists are guilty of not moving on? This is not the only place this has happened, it is happening throughout East Belfast. Murals for instance are being overpainted with things more in keeping with the whole community. A for instance is the paramilitary mural that once was the cenrter point of Tullycarnet, is now a picture of a Catolic man from West Belfast who won the VC in WW2. Who is it that are not moving on and looking to the future?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7403594.stm

[An Fear Dubh]

Bilk - this is a fruitless and divisive topic with no purpose other than to point score over each other. I can equally point to the fact that these same loyalists have their arms caches in these areas and there is no will on behalf of the local community to remove the gun from unionist mainstream politics so I see little evidence of loyalist communities looking to move away from the past of armed sectarian violence. Ask the Chinese community of the Donegal Road where this park is how safe they feel from extreme loyalism.
Maybe you feel a bit frustrated and want to lash out, okay fair enough. But I think you are better than this.

[earl]

Ignoring your blatant points scoring jibes, and concentrating on the content of the link, I have to take my hat off to all those involved in the project. It's a welcome sign indeed and here's to more projects like this being successfully completed on either side of the divide, and may they help bring everyone closer together.

[Bilk]

May 16, 2008 14:31:20 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

Bilk - this is a fruitless and divisive topic with no purpose other than to point score over each other. I can equally point to the fact that these same loyalists have their arms caches in these areas and there is no will on behalf of the local community to remove the gun from unionist mainstream politics so I see little evidence of loyalist communities looking to move away from the past of armed sectarian violence. Ask the Chinese community of the Donegal Road where this park is how safe they feel from extreme loyalism.
Maybe you feel a bit frustrated and want to lash out, okay fair enough. But I think you are better than this.

Just a minute, I have been told that my community are incapable of moving forward so many times I am sick listening to it. This is a positive along, as I said, with many other positives that are coming from my community, and you dismiss it as a devisive issue. And the loyalist communities you talk of have absolutely no control over the arms issue, no more than the nationalists in West Belfast have control over IRA/SF arms. I was talking about the community here not the paramilitaries.

[An Fear Dubh]

Okay fair enough if you are showing a positive from inside a local loyalist community, then shout it out loud and we will applaud it. But such forward movement is insular and only really effects those inside the community.

The fear for neighbouring nationalist communities is the guns that such communities harbour for loyalist paramilitaries. And a greater cross-comminty gesture would be the removal of guns from loyalist politics.

The divisveness occurs when you then use this positive and compare something else which is not the same as a reflection of how nationalists have not moved forward. Years ago Republican murals were painted over, and years ago Republican guns were decommissioned to external satifaction. If you have a positive then let us hear about it but do not turn it into a competition where one is awarded accolades over another, that is devisive.

It is good to hear about small steps forward within Unionism, and hopefully you will continue to follow the Republican lead and if the paramilitaries will not voluntary give up their arms then the loyalist communities will force them to do so.

[Bilk]

May 16, 2008 15:29:03 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

Okay fair enough if you are showing a positive from inside a local loyalist community, then shout it out loud and we will applaud it. But such forward movement is insular and only really effects those inside the community.

The fear for neighbouring nationalist communities is the guns that such communities harbour for loyalist paramilitaries. And a greater cross-comminty gesture would be the removal of guns from loyalist politics.

The divisveness occurs when you then use this positive and compare something else which is not the same as a reflection of how nationalists have not moved forward. Years ago Republican murals were painted over, and years ago Republican guns were decommissioned to external satifaction. If you have a positive then let us hear about it but do not turn it into a competition where one is awarded accolades over another, that is devisive.

It is good to hear about small steps forward within Unionism, and hopefully you will continue to follow the Republican lead and if the paramilitaries will not voluntary give up their arms then the loyalist communities will force them to do so.

Just a fucking minute how dare you come out with such fucking utter crap, you know anybody personally who is harbouring guns for the loyalist paramilitaries in this street, or any other street or loyalist area???

I was told by the greatest bunch of liars God ever put on this earth that they have decommisioned, or that their weapons I should say "Have been put beyond use" that is not decommissioned. The Loyalist paramilitaries have said their war is over too, I believe them about as much as I believe SF/IRA, and that is not at all. So when exactly did any of them decommission?

I am talking communities here, you seem to be fixated with paramilitaries. I could start naming people who have been accused in the republican movement for murder since they declared thier murder campaign was ended, but I'm not going to because I am trying to talk about communities. If you want to talk about paramilitaries, then start a thread on it, I may even join in the debate.

[An Fear Dubh]

So what are you saying the guns hide themselves or the loyalist paramilitaries carry them arround personally. You can not pretend that loyalist paramilitaries come from other communities other than loyalist ones you can not seperate one from the other they are tied together.

As I said at the start such a topic was and is devisive. Once you used it as a competitive yard stick.

My objective is not to look for issues where we are divided but to find common ground and to build on that. We are intelligent enough to recognise the areas where we disagree and I am happy enough to applaud positive actions. But do not turn all sensitive and feign indignance when you start to political point score, and I return the compliment.

We need both need to be mature enough to act together and recognise this thread as devisive, and to move away from the political point scoring. I am will to do this, are you willing to do the same?

[Bilk]

"The divisveness occurs when you then use this positive and compare something else which is not the same as a reflection of how nationalists have not moved forward. Years ago Republican murals were painted over, and years ago Republican guns were decommissioned to external satifaction. If you have a positive then let us hear about it but do not turn it into a competition where one is awarded accolades over another, that is devisive."


I've just noticed this other piece of crap

There is no devisiveness in what I said, unless it makes you feel uncomfortable. Why should I not compare these two? And why in your opinion are they different? Loyalist/unionists take away a memorial garden to a bunch of murderers-republicans want to build new ones to their murderers where they have the power to do so. You are right they are different, they a different in respect of the fact one is positive and the other is totally negative. Now where in that am I wrong?

[Bilk]

May 16, 2008 16:12:14 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

So what are you saying the guns hide themselves or the loyalist paramilitaries carry them arround personally. You can not pretend that loyalist paramilitaries come from other communities other than loyalist ones you can not seperate one from the other they are tied together.

As I said at the start such a topic was and is devisive. Once you used it as a competitive yard stick.

My objective is not to look for issues where we are divided but to find common ground and to build on that. We are intelligent enough to recognise the areas where we disagree and I am happy enough to applaud positive actions. But do not turn all sensitive and feign indignance when you start to political point score, and I return the compliment.

We need both need to be mature enough to act together and recognise this thread as devisive, and to move away from the political point scoring. I am will to do this, are you willing to do the same?

You know what? I am admin here but I will do nothing about your continuous vilification of ordrinary loyalist/unionists in their communities. I will leave it here for all fair minded people to see.

It is only devisive if you are uncomforable with it. And you obviously are.

I do not equate the ordrinary people from nationalist communities with their murderers, how dare you do that?

[Harry]

AFD your assessment then must allow movement for those who say that attacking the Catholic community was attacking the IRA??

[An Fear Dubh]

I can see where you are going Harry and it is not my role or desire to justify loyalist tactics, that is for those who do, to do that themselves.

I hope that our communities are moving beyond going backwards. And as an active republican I recognise my role in that past. I do not glory in that past nor do I turn my back and deny that past or disown it.

I do not know the relationship inside loyalist communities. But I am of my community, I am openly accepted and my position is openly know. I do get called upon to act as arbitrator and my advice is sought out. Active Republicans like myself could not have sustained the political battle without the support of the local community within which we lived. Our change in strategy was driven by the feelings from our community. We can not be divorced or seperated from our communities.
In my assessment loyalist tactics were about terrorizing a community and sectarianism and soft targets, and there was no or little attempt to target people like myself.

[Wasp]

May 16, 2008 15:53:18 GMT Bilk said:

May 16, 2008 15:29:03 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

Okay fair enough if you are showing a positive from inside a local loyalist community, then shout it out loud and we will applaud it. But such forward movement is insular and only really effects those inside the community.

The fear for neighbouring nationalist communities is the guns that such communities harbour for loyalist paramilitaries. And a greater cross-comminty gesture would be the removal of guns from loyalist politics.

The divisveness occurs when you then use this positive and compare something else which is not the same as a reflection of how nationalists have not moved forward. Years ago Republican murals were painted over, and years ago Republican guns were decommissioned to external satifaction. If you have a positive then let us hear about it but do not turn it into a competition where one is awarded accolades over another, that is devisive.

It is good to hear about small steps forward within Unionism, and hopefully you will continue to follow the Republican lead and if the paramilitaries will not voluntary give up their arms then the loyalist communities will force them to do so.

Just a fucking minute how dare you come out with such fucking utter crap, you know anybody personally who is harbouring guns for the loyalist paramilitaries in this street, or any other street or loyalist area???

I was told by the greatest bunch of liars God ever put on this earth that they have decommisioned, or that their weapons I should say "Have been put beyond use" that is not decommissioned. The Loyalist paramilitaries have said their war is over too, I believe them about as much as I believe SF/IRA, and that is not at all. So when exactly did any of them decommission?

I am talking communities here, you seem to be fixated with paramilitaries. I could start naming people who have been accused in the republican movement for murder since they declared thier murder campaign was ended, but I'm not going to because I am trying to talk about communities. If you want to talk about paramilitaries, then start a thread on it, I may even join in the debate.

Excellent points bilk. Even on here Unionists are being told about there brand of Unionism will get us nowhere, we are stuck in the past etc etc. Maybe republicans should practice what they preach, or maybe they have no right to preach to anyone about anything. They call us backward yet for over 3 decades they tried to force people to submit to them by there bombs and guuns, they ignored the pleas of the majority of people to stop the violence, they ignored democracy, yet now they dictate to those who disagree with them.

[Harry]

May 16, 2008 17:18:20 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

I can see where you are going Harry and it is not my role or desire to justify loyalist tactics, that is for those who do, to do that themselves.

I hope that our communities are moving beyond going backwards. And as an active republican I recognise my role in that past. I do not glory in that past nor do I turn my back and deny that past or disown it.

I do not know the relationship inside loyalist communities. But I am of my community, I am openly accepted and my position is openly know. I do get called upon to act as arbitrator and my advice is sought out. Active Republicans like myself could not have sustained the political battle without the support of the local community within which we lived. Our change in strategy was driven by the feelings from our community. We can not be divorced or seperated from our communities.
In my assessment loyalist tactics were about terrorizing a community and sectarianism and soft targets, and there was no or little attempt to target people like myself.

Interesting. Its hard to actually justify Loyalist attacks. It seems very inhumane. I know what pain we inflicted on mostly innocent people. My feeling is that the IRA could not of operated without support from within the Catholic community. They were protected and sheltered by that community.

The IRA were very good and extremely disciplined. They didn't parade around Macho like declaring their IRA membership. They were hard to target and most certainly Loyalism took the easy option by striking at random targets. The hope being that the Catholic community would force the IRA to stop as they themselves were being targetted in revenge.

Loyalism had no problem with extreme violence. We had no shortage of killers. Would they have been killers in a normal society?? I doubt it. The IRA created many Loyalist killers. What an evil past we had.

[Bilk]

Speaking as someone who lived in an ultra loyalist area when the "troubles" were at their height, I can tell you that there was no support whatever for the paramilitaries in that area. (Let alone harbouring them or hiding guns or weapons for them) There certainly were no bin lids rattling when the police or army came to arrest loyalist paramilitaries. They were shunned by the community, which is why, in my opinion, in many cases they turned on that same community. The loyalist community at times had as much if not more to fear from the loyalist paramilitaries than nationalists did. I don't know where you (AFD) get your information from, but you need to wind your neck in making accusations like the ones you have made above. It may come from your experience in the nationalist community where they did rattle bin lids when the Brits were around, it certainly wasn't anything I experienced where I lived. I will give you the stock nationalist republican answer to that accusation. Can I have a link to your evidence of widespread colusion between the unionist community and the loyalist paramilitaries. If not please do not accuse my community of any such collusion again. I take great offense at such accusations, especially on a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with paramilitaries, but was about communities and how they are moving forward. I know you don't like the thread and would very much like to change it's topic and theme, but try to stay somewhere close to the topic. "Ridding ourselves of the past" was the title. Not "Lets rake up the past as I believed it to be" which is what you are doing.

[Shades40]

May 17, 2008 11:47:31 GMT Harry said:

May 16, 2008 17:18:20 GMT An Fear Dubh said:

I can see where you are going Harry and it is not my role or desire to justify loyalist tactics, that is for those who do, to do that themselves.

I hope that our communities are moving beyond going backwards. And as an active republican I recognise my role in that past. I do not glory in that past nor do I turn my back and deny that past or disown it.

I do not know the relationship inside loyalist communities. But I am of my community, I am openly accepted and my position is openly know. I do get called upon to act as arbitrator and my advice is sought out. Active Republicans like myself could not have sustained the political battle without the support of the local community within which we lived. Our change in strategy was driven by the feelings from our community. We can not be divorced or seperated from our communities.
In my assessment loyalist tactics were about terrorizing a community and sectarianism and soft targets, and there was no or little attempt to target people like myself.

Interesting. Its hard to actually justify Loyalist attacks. It seems very inhumane. I know what pain we inflicted on mostly innocent people. My feeling is that the IRA could not of operated without support from within the Catholic community. They were protected and sheltered by that community.

The IRA were very good and extremely disciplined. They didn't parade around Macho like declaring their IRA membership. They were hard to target and most certainly Loyalism took the easy option by striking at random targets. The hope being that the Catholic community would force the IRA to stop as they themselves were being targetted in revenge.

Loyalism had no problem with extreme violence. We had no shortage of killers. Would they have been killers in a normal society?? I doubt it. The IRA created many Loyalist killers. What an evil past we had.

You reckon the Shankill butchers would have been just butchers?
Every group had it's fair share of psycos some more willing to have these killers than others.