Breaking down the border is in the North’s own int

[earl]

corporate tax is a red herring. There's only one way that'll happen, and that's in the aftermath of a UI.
Any northern politician whose economic ideas include mostly trying to harmonise tax with the south is blowing smoke and trying to cover up their complete lack of ideas in this area. Also, even if they did manage to harmonise the tax rate, it would still take a lot more to get NI back on it's feet.

[Jim]

I'd prefer to say back on its feet for the first time. It never had a real economy until lately.

[Bilk]

I think that is wishful thinking on your part, the unemployment rate in Northern Ireland is at a very low point. If it weren't for the scumbags who have never worked and never will we would have a very low rate. We have always through 30 years of a terrorist campaign managed to stay afloat. And according to the Daily Express on Monday Northern Ireland is one of the fastest growing areas of Europe at the moment. But im my opinion for what it's worth it's growing in the wrong direction. As for the corporate tax, yeah there was some problem in lowering it because of the tax system. What confuses me though Scotland don't seem to have any problem tinkering with the tax system. My feeling on it was that a complaint went in from the Irish government when it was proposed and Gordon backed off, or was told to by Tony.

[An Fear Dubh]

Some interesting points put forward and I would agree with the general thrust of Earl's points. But I am surprised at some of Bilks comments.

Corporate tax is a red herring, and merely a short term hopeful idea that given the present 'credit-crunch' would have little to no effect. And any concession granted by Westminster to NI will have to be also given to Scotland thus reducing its effect of enticement to NI exclusively. And the idea that the ROI influenced London on not considering such a tax incentive is silly, and I won't even go into that theory in detail.

We can not hope to compete with China and other countries in manufacturing where the labour costs for unskilled labour is so much lower than the average worker would expect here. So looking at building heavy industrial manufacturing with high unskilled labour costs is folly in the extreme.

While I too marvel at what some 'unemployed' people can achieve financially, I think we are being diverted from looking at causes to instead look at symptoms. Cheating the 'employment/unemployment system' is small fry and if we are really looking to claw back money look at what the south did with its 'tax' amnesty and incentives for 'whistle-blowers'. But these are just smoke and mirrors schemes that make good media stories.

Building shopping centres and numerous 'yuppie' apartments is speculative madness. We already see numerous apartments unoccupied in Laganside, and investors are told to sit tight and weather the 'credit-crunch' but the builder has made his profit and moved on. Shops need people in work to spend in their shops, and 'yuppie' apartments need 'yuppies'. While it is blatantly obvious that we are a service and public sector economy in the north and that such an economy is never sustainable independently. So if unskilled labour manufacturing is not a viable competitive option, then what is a viable option? If I knew the answer I would be a consultant economist. But Earl has identified the current 'buzz' words in economies like ours - 'High skilled services coupled with R&D with close links to Universities that provide the back-up'. The weakness of this is the need for such services to keep ahead and to be 'market leaders' and cutting edge. Once they fall behind or be become out dated they are quickly disposed of. I would like to see the local and indigenous businesses given more of a focus, and any growth in this sector will be long term gains and are not likely to export the profits out of the economy. But such a focus has a high capital risk factor and is not appealing to PR departments like 'Invest NI', when a cheap call-centre opening can employ 600 on opening day, and move to India the week after. While the local business is mainly family run with limited external employees.

Bilk maybe your Mum did not properly explain it to you but the term - Keeping up with the Jones' - does not mean being treated equally in society. It is about having aspirations that might be financially unrealistic and not within your real budget. But I think you knew that but wanted to twist it to make the demand for equality appear dirty and envious. And therefore not something that decent people should demand as a right. At least let us be honest otherwise debate is fruitless if I am merely out to point score rather than look for a fresh new way forward. I am trying to be honest but you seem to think I have some hidden agenda. I am open about what I aspire to and where I come from, I hope to be reciprocated, but it is easy to identify those who wish to play games and point score. I did not infer that you are envious or greedy, and I do not like the suggestion that my motivation might be envy or greed.

Bilk I am not really interested in your financial position anymore than I think you are interested in mine. Of course by world standards and by the standards of our forefathers of course we are all far richer. But let us stick to comparisons within our own present local society when talking about rich and poor otherwise we get drawn down an infinite tangent. I am not rich but I am working full time so I am not poor either. I am content in my general lifestyle but only a fool would not want to improve their financial position to at least keep up with inflation. So you would want to be equal with your fellow worker for one, unless your trade union morals have lost you and you want to work for less than the going rate. If you want to remain aloof and isolate yourself you will be poor not only financially but also poor in other aspects. I have no love to be exploited but I do want to have a positive input into the society that is being built here, and I have no intention of standing aside with high moral principles while those with no or few moral shape that society unchallenged.

Bilk I think you have been away from the employment market too long and today University graduates are the ones 'qualified' for sales assistance in stores like MFI and other such retailers. There a few graduates that walk out of Uni into top jobs. While we may hear such phrases as 'fast-track' and 'headhunters' scouring Uni's to jump top achievers into high sounding positions. The reality is they still make the tea and get the lunch at the local deli, and only a very very select few by-pass this system. Few careers outside of medicine and law are long term. And the possibility of starting in one field and ending in the same field is a quickly shrinking plan. As industries and careers change so much that there is the constant need to upgrade your education and retrain your workforce. Your old fashioned advice is out of date with the present reality.

For Republicans accepting the Stormont Assembly was not a watering down of republican or nationalist values, but part of a process to change the society we have, the aspirations of republicans have been written into the GFA and endorsed at St. Andrews. Accepting Stormont is still a great risk for Republicans and the pitfalls are numerous and enticing, but our analysis was that this was the best route. The choices for Unionism are the same as for Republicans but we have already shown that we mean to be the advocates of change. Unionism has shown it is frozen and resistant to any change, in a growing changing society such a strategy is weak. When people look back to see where progress and change came from. We need to ensure that change is positive and brings progress. But thanks to the position that Unionism (resistant to all change) is adopting Republicans are in a win win position.

[earl]

May 15, 2008 18:19:01 GMT Bilk said:

I think that is wishful thinking on your part, the unemployment rate in Northern Ireland is at a very low point. If it weren't for the scumbags who have never worked and never will we would have a very low rate. We have always through 30 years of a terrorist campaign managed to stay afloat. And according to the Daily Express on Monday Northern Ireland is one of the fastest growing areas of Europe at the moment. But im my opinion for what it's worth it's growing in the wrong direction. As for the corporate tax, yeah there was some problem in lowering it because of the tax system. What confuses me though Scotland don't seem to have any problem tinkering with the tax system. My feeling on it was that a complaint went in from the Irish government when it was proposed and Gordon backed off, or was told to by Tony.

Don't be fooled by dollied up figures that are floating around about the state of NI's workforce. NI cannot stand on it's own feet. It requires £8 billion per anum from the SE of England to keep NI afloat. The public sector, which is larger per head than that of the communist state of China, is something like 30%-40% of all those employed (the UK average is at around 20.4%). That's 30%-40% of the workforce who do not generate any revenue for NI. They get paid from the subvention granted by the treasury.
The level of early stage entrepreneurial activity in Northern Ireland was 4.9 per cent in 2007. Northern Ireland still remains in a group of UK regions with the lowest level of early stage entrepreneurial activity, although that gap is being reduced. 1 out
of 20 adults (around 500 000) are involved in the various stages of actually setting up their own business in NI. Young adults (18-34 year olds) and those aged 55 years and over in NI are less likely to be engaged in early stage entrepreneurial activity than their counterparts elsewhere in the UK. Graduates in Northern Ireland are less likely than elsewhere in the UK to be involved in
early stage entrepreneurial activity. Compared to the UK overall and the other 11 regions, people in NI are significantly less likely to report that they have the necessary skills to start their own business, and significantly more likely to state that ‘fear of failure’ would prevent them from starting their own business.

(all above got from here: www.investni.com/global_entrepreneurship_monitor__gem__northern_ireland_summary_2007.pdf )

And why should someone take the risk on their own in setting up their own business when they could get a nice cushy government job for life with pension? It is crucial that NI reduces it's size of public sector workers.
NI has a great education system, so schemes need to be set up between industry and third level institutions to help develop a highly educated workforce with the right skills. This also helps students walk out of college and straight into the industry.

I don't know what kind of picture you have of students coming out of college Bilk, but as a former student, I can tell you that there were no expectations of jumping ahead of anyone, or having a job laid out on a plate. In the high skilled services sector, unexperienced post-grads are the bottom-feeders who start out on the bottom rung. I started out in a call centre (for Dell) before I garnered enough experience to move up a rung on the ladder. A further 2 years it took in the last job to help me get enough experience to go for a real career job like I'm in now. Experience is everything and a degree is worth next to nothing. All a degree means is that you are capable of learning in a particular field, it doesn't mean that you already know everything and I've never come across a post-grad who did think he knew everything and was expecting a cushy well paid job straight out of education.

[An Fear Dubh]

Bilk, on further reflection I wonder why you as one who highlights your Trade Union leanings would persist on such an obvious red-herring as those that cheat the employment/unemployment system as one that is disabilitating to our economy when a quick look at the figures (and various leading Trade Unionists have made this point) show that in financial terms of building an economy such figures are small fry and even if everyone was gainfully employed the situation would be unchanged. The inclination from my perspective might be that your motives are not honest. In society here it is generally touted about that all Catholics are lazy, unemployed or cheating the system. And such a red-herring might appeal to others from your community to feed their sectarianism and all economic woes can be laid at the feet of Republicans or Catholics. This is a shallow and failed position, and should be shunned and distanced from by people of a right mind especially those who espouse to come from a Trade Union tradition.
Obviously you want to be more equal than some.